Esther 4-8 Part 2: Queen Esther
About This Episode
The most famous part of the book of Esther is without a doubt, the Queen's courageous entrance into the king's chambers. She risks her life for the sake of her people. In this episode, Seth and David unpack what we should and shouldn't be seeing in this famous story, and how all of it points us to Jesus.
Esther's Courageous Intercession and Christ's Ultimate Sacrifice
Show Notes
In this episode of the Spoken Gospel Podcast, David and Seth dive deep into chapters 4-8 of the book of Esther. They explore the pivotal moment when Queen Esther risks her life to intercede for her people before King Xerxes. David and Seth unpack the rich theological themes and foreshadowing of Christ found in this dramatic narrative.
Esther's Dilemma and Mordecai's Challenge
The episode begins by recapping Haman's genocidal edict against the Jews and Mordecai's plea for Esther to intervene. David and Seth highlight the perilous nature of Esther's position - even as queen, she could be executed for approaching the king uninvited. Mordecai's famous exhortation that perhaps Esther has "come to the Kingdom for such a time as this" is examined as a veiled reference to God's providence. David and Seth note how this reflects the exilic experience of sensing God's hidden hand at work even in dire circumstances.
Esther's Courageous Intercession
Esther's decision to approach the king is explored as an act of sacrificial courage. Her statement "If I perish, I perish" is unpacked as resignation mixed with resolve. David and Seth discuss how Esther's willingness to lay down her life for her people foreshadows Christ's ultimate sacrifice. They note how Esther's status as "Queen" is emphasized after this pivotal decision, reflecting how true royalty is found in self-sacrifice.
Divine Providence in the Details
The numerous "coincidences" in the story are highlighted as evidence of God's sovereign hand at work behind the scenes. From Esther becoming queen to the king's fortuitous insomnia, David and Seth show how these "coincidences" demonstrate God's faithfulness to his covenant people even in exile. This offers encouragement to readers facing difficult circumstances to trust in God's hidden providence.
Christ Prefigured in Esther's Intercession
David and Seth draw out how Esther's intercession before the king prefigures Christ's work on our behalf. Like Esther entering the king's presence at risk of death, Jesus entered God's presence bearing our sins. Unlike Xerxes extending his scepter to spare Esther, the Father did not spare his Son. This ultimate act of sacrificial love overturned the "edict of death" against humanity.
Imputed Righteousness Illustrated
The episode concludes by exploring how the reversal of fortunes between Haman and Mordecai beautifully illustrates the doctrine of imputed righteousness. Just as Haman ended up impaled and Mordecai exalted, so too Christ bore our punishment that we might be clothed in his righteousness. This offers a powerful picture of the Gospel's transforming work in the believer's life.
Intro: Welcome to the Spoken Gospel Podcast. Spoken Gospel is a nonprofit dedicated to the idea that every part of the Bible, Old Testament and New, is about Jesus, and this podcast is our experiment to publicly test that belief. Every episode, hosts David Bowden and Seth Stewart work through a biblical text to see how it helps us see and savor Jesus. Let's jump in.
David: Welcome, everyone, to the Spoken Gospel Podcast.
Seth: Welcome.
David: This is episode three, side B. Side B.
Seth: Besides.
David: Besides. This is.
Seth: So this is the other side of the record.
David: We're gonna do chapters four through eight of Esther. This is our third episode in Esther, and there's two kinds of stories swirling around in these chapters. One is the thread of the tension between Mordecai and Haman. And we talked about that last week. And now we're going to talk about what, for a lot of people is the paradigmatic moment of the book, which is Queen Esther going to the king. If I perish, I perish. Laying her life down on the line to save the day for the Jews.
Seth: Yeah. And it is a climactic, important point of the book, big time. She is the messianic figure.
David: Yes.
Seth: As she goes into the king's presence on behalf of her people. Like that is true. We'll talk about that.
David: We'll talk all about that.
Seth: Yeah, but it's more complicated than that.
David: It is. A lot's going on.
Seth: So to rewind the story.
David: Yes.
Seth: We're at Esther, the edict.
David: Let's start with the edict. So the big edict has gone out that all people are going. All Jewish people, all of God's people scattered around the Persian Empire are going to die on a certain day.
Seth: Yes, the 13th of Adar.
David: The 13th of Adar.
Seth: We should talk about why it's on that date. So Haman. It's like the function of the book. So Haman consults a pair of dice to determine which day he should kill all the Jews on him.
David: Cast lots.
Seth: He cast lots. And he casts lots. And he casts lots. And the lots in Hebrew are called pur. And the dice land on the 13th Vidar. I don't quite know what cast lots means on that. My guess is, like, whichever month I roll double sixes on, that's the month. And then whatever day I roll double sixes on, that's the day. That's kind of the way that I thought about it. Sure.
David: That's a. That's a fine way to think about it.
Seth: And so he cast these lots, and coincidentally, by God's sovereign plan, or is it by chance, it ends up being on the 13th of Adar and the end of the book, the feast that they inaugurate is called Purim, the festival of the dice. Ironically, the way that Haman planned for Israel's destruction with a pair of dice is actually ironically, the way the day that they will celebrate their salvation. So there's that another irony, Another irony. So he makes this decree. All the Jews will be decreed killed on the 13th.
David: And so Mordecai hears about this plot, and he calls his now niece, Esther, her who's the queen now, to use her new really non existent power to do something about it. And he says, you need to go into the king's court, his inner court, and plead with him to overturn this edict.
Seth: Yes.
David: And she points out something to Mordecai that is just this reality about this twisted, wicked king, that if anyone goes into the king's inner court without being invited, unless he holds out his golden scepter to them, they're killed. And.
Seth: And think about that. As his wife, as his queen.
David: Yeah. She has no right.
Seth: Even his queen, she hasn't seen him in 30 days. She has no right to see him again. The empire is cruel towards not just women, but people in power are absolutely wicked and obsessed with their own control, self important, indulgent. It's another glimpse into the horror behind the empire. So she says this to Mordecai. Yes, I can't go.
David: And Mordecai's response is like, look, girl, he's like, you're gonna die either way.
Seth: He said, it's really important. And then they told Mordecai what Esther had said. Then Mordecai told them to reply to Esther. This is all happening, all happening through.
David: A game of telephone.
Seth: Yeah. But do not think of yourself that in the king's palace you will escape any more than all of the other Jews. Which is fascinating. Cause like Mordecai is a king's guard, knows the government well enough to know that even the queen, supposedly have the most power protection, will be killed by this edict in order for the king to save face.
David: Yeah. This edict must be so wide, sweeping, and the king must be so capricious and prideful that this edict will even come close to home.
Seth: Yes. And then he says this. So you're gonna die by this edict. And if you keep silent at this time, relief and deliverance will rise for the Jews from another place. But you and your father's house will perish. And who knows whether you have not come to the kingdom for such a.
David: Time as this so many things here.
Seth: So many things.
David: Good news, gracious.
Seth: So one, the brutality of the kingdom. Not even the queen is safe. Right. She'll be killed on the altar of the king's pride.
David: And like. And something to stop there and notice is that there is this symbol that's being played with here that the. The king is in this inner court in his tabernacle. Mordecai, who's kind of like a contemporary pagan Levite, in a sense, is on the outer court as its guard. So this is like a new manifestation of the tabernacle of God.
Seth: A false tabernacle. False tabernacle of God.
David: But in the same way, if, like in Leviticus and Numbers, we hear about, if you come into the Lord's presence without being invited, you know, without being done in the right way, without the right garb on, and after the right sacrifice, you will die.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And so the same thing is true of this king's inner court. And so the people of Israel, you know, you know, like, represented by Mordecai and Esther, are looking for someone to go into the king's holy of holies and represent them at the cost of their life.
Seth: Yes.
David: That's what they're looking for.
Seth: Yes.
David: Like, our gospel radar should just be pinging like crazy. So that's. That's the first thing.
Seth: So that's the first thing.
David: What's the second one?
Seth: And then he says, if you keep silent at this time, relief and deliverance will rise for the Jews from another place.
David: Which is such an interesting statement.
Seth: Such a vague statement never mentions God. It doesn't mention the promises of Genesis 3:15. But I think that's exactly what Mordecai is doing. Mordecai knows he's locked in an eternal battle. He knows he's fighting against the seed.
David: Of Agag, which is why he didn't.
Seth: Bow the seed of the serpent, which is why he didn't bow. And he knows that Haman's overreaction to it is part of the divine, about the demonic conspiracy against God's people that has been happening since the foundation of the world. And he knows the promise of Genesis 3:15, that there is one coming who will crush the head of the serpent. Right. So when he says, who knows deliverance and relief will rise from another place? I think he's preaching the gospel to Esther.
David: He definitely is preaching the gospel.
Seth: He's saying, like, there is one coming who will crush the seed of the serpent.
David: Right.
Seth: There is somebody coming who's going to crush the empire.
David: But for now, it could be you.
Seth: It could be you.
David: Yeah. And it's just very interesting that what I love about this, especially since Esther, the book of Esther, is so much about the sovereignty of God working behind the scenes. And Mordecai shows real faith here to say, even if you let all the people of Israel die, you know, in a sense, by not doing your duty here.
Seth: Right.
David: God's gonna do something. It's gonna. Salvation will come from another place because God will not abandon his people.
Seth: Yes.
David: A deliverer will come.
Seth: Right.
David: Even if it's not you. And so, like God, Mordecai is showing that he knows that. That God's plans are not dependent upon our inability to carry them out.
Seth: Yes. And at the same time, he works alongside them, which is exactly his next statement.
David: Exactly his point.
Seth: Exactly his next statement. But who knows?
David: But who knows? It could be you.
Seth: Maybe you were born for a time as this. Maybe God has orchestrated history.
David: Yes. Maybe God is about to redeem this time of sex trafficking and political entanglement.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And like, horrible situation. You've been in fear for your life whenever you would go near this man who is now your supposed husband. Maybe he's going to redeem this whole situation of us in Persia to overturn something and do something amazing. Maybe God's going to deliver his people.
Seth: Maybe this will be us crushing the head of the serpent.
David: Maybe this is the time.
Seth: Like, yes.
David: Who knows? Like, that's. It's so amazing. And like, I don't want to get, like, crazy here.
Seth: Don't get crazy. But.
David: But it is. I think that the Bible for a lot of people comes off as a very misogynistic book.
Seth: Yeah.
David: But the fact that a man in this time period would say that maybe the deliverer of all of God's people that has been promised since Genesis 3, it could be you, Esther.
Seth: Right.
David: Is like, whoa.
Seth: Like, yeah.
David: What a statement.
Seth: Such a statement. And remember, God made the promise that the serpent crusher would come from Eve, from a woman.
David: So now we have another woman.
Seth: Another woman. You have a woman here who's in this position of power to represent God's people, people, to savor people. And even Jesus's birth comes at the cost of a woman.
David: Yes. Like, you know, woman who was scandalized and could have lost her husband and could have been destitute and laid out.
Seth: Like, yeah, yeah. All the things that we want to say, all the moral ambiguities. That was like seeing Esther's, like, she. Maybe she wasn't faithful, maybe she wasn't a Good Jewish girl.
David: Maybe should have laid her life down instead of. Maybe should have fought the king's harem involvement.
Seth: Everything that Joseph thought about Mary.
David: Yeah.
Seth: When Jesus.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Happens in her womb. Right. Like, there's a. She's a type of Mary. She's a type of Eve that we can see. Like, God has used women throughout Redempt. Has always used women to bring about our redemptive history.
David: Yeah. I mean, she's like Tamar in this situation too.
Seth: Yes.
David: Because she's sexually scandalized in order to bring about the furtherance of God's promise through sex.
Seth: Yeah.
David: It's very scandalous.
Seth: I don't remember where that is.
David: It's. It's Genesis 30 or like, it's the beginning of the story of Joseph.
Seth: So, like, go back, podcast.
David: Yeah. The story of Joseph. Yeah.
Seth: So anyway, so she's acting. That's. It's a really. That's a really, really good point. So God is working behind the scenes. Maybe he's orchestrated history for this woman jail.
David: Sorry, I'm just like. I'm thinking of, like, of like women. God using women in sexually compromised situations to bring about salvation. JL in the book of numbers or Judges. Sorry, Judges. Does the same thing. Like, she, like the. This, this. This evil king of the people of God are trying to overthrow and they can't. He ends up being, like, brought into. This woman's, like going into this tent and this woman comes and like, stabs him in the temple with a tent peg.
Seth: Yeah. And it's like she brings about salvation.
David: She brings up some people. Salvation for God's people. Even, like, there are types of Eve.
Seth: The Samaritan woman at the well.
David: The Samaritan woman at the well.
Seth: A sexually compromised woman who is the first evangelist of the Good News.
David: She brings the water of life to people.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah. I mean. Yeah. This is just. It is cool. I. It is cool.
Seth: It's well put. Yes. That needs to be pointed out.
David: That's cool.
Seth: There's a reason why Esther is a great place to go for what is the Bible's theology about women.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Yes.
David: It's like women have always been and will always be a central part of.
Seth: The way that God makes his new creation in the world. Yes.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Even in Genesis, like, man and woman together are multiplying, filling the earth, co creating the world.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Anyway, great point.
David: Okay. Where to go from here?
Seth: Who knows?
David: Yeah. Oh, okay. So we talk about the deliverer.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And then who knows if you've been raised up for such a time as this. So we got through Mordecai's little mini. Very well said speech.
Seth: Yes. To Esther, everything we just said is like, man, the redeemer.
David: The redeemer's here, I'm here.
Seth: She's here, she's here. And we often hear the next line. It's probably the most famous line in the book of Esther.
David: Yep. One of the most famous in the Bible, probably.
Seth: If I die, I die.
David: If I perish, I perish, I perish, I perish.
Seth: But so there's like a tense in Hebrew that actually communicates resignation and hopelessness. And so it's not if I perish, I perish, it's when I perish, I perish. When I die, I'm gonna die.
David: Yep. It seems like she's real because this echoes what Mordecai has said. Mordecai said, look, you can go into the king's palace and you can die, you know, or you can wait around in the king's palace and die. When the edict comes in. Yeah, you're going to die one way or the other. You might as well do it for such a time as this.
Seth: Yes.
David: You know, you might as well lay it on the line and do it. So there is still. Even in the resignation.
Seth: Yeah.
David: There is still this, like, all right, bring it on.
Seth: Right.
David: You know, so it's not.
Seth: It's not all.
David: Still. It still took a lot of bravery.
Seth: On her part and super fascinating, like, literary piece of information here. I think the term Queen esther is used 14 times in the book, and 13 of those times happen after this moment. So she's referred to as Queen Esther when she's coronated. But Esther, for the rest of the time and the rest of the book, she's referred to as Queen Esther. After this decisive moment, Mordecai preaches the gospel to her. She resigns herself to what that means her death.
David: Right.
Seth: And when she sublimates her life for other people's life, when she's willing to.
David: Die for other people, she's seen as a queen.
Seth: She's royalty. She's the queen.
David: You want to. If you want to save your life, lose it.
Seth: Yes.
David: Yeah. If you want to go high, go low.
Seth: Yes.
David: If you want to be a king, be a servant.
Seth: And this is. I mean. Yeah, exactly right. This is the teaching of Jesus. This is what Jesus does as a servant of all mankind. This is what he does on the cross. He goes at the cost of his own life, and then he's resurrected as king. Above all things. Esther is that.
David: And so Esther goes In, Right?
Seth: Yep.
David: Esther goes in to the king's inner court.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Tense moment. Is she gonna die or not?
Seth: And the king accepts her.
David: And the king holds out the golden scepter and even extends to her this. What do you want?
Seth: Up to the half waking king.
David: Which is an idiom.
Seth: He's just saying, like, anything.
David: Go crazy.
Seth: I heard one. One person say it this way. It's like it's his queen.
David: Yep.
Seth: And he has a royal courtroom full of people that he wants to appear generous, magnanimous, powerful to.
David: That's right.
Seth: And so he is looking for an opportunity to prove his generosity and his splendor. Say, up to kingdom, my queen. What do you want? It's hyperbolic.
David: Yes, it is.
Seth: But it's making him. It's forcing him to grant her request. Whatever it ends up being. It goes back to the fact that he's a pushover. Yeah.
David: It's ironic.
Seth: Still, it's ironic. He's not really thinking through his decision here.
David: Because what's ironic is he's offering her up to half his kingdom, but ultimately the final deliverer of God's people will take over his whole kingdom.
Seth: Yes.
David: Like, you know, that's just exactly right.
Seth: So she invites him, knowing her husband's predilection for getting drunk at parties.
David: She's like, I'm going to stage a bar crawl.
Seth: Yeah. She sets up a feast and invites Haman and Xerxes specifically, which is perfect.
David: Because Haman loves to get. Or Xerxes loves to get drunk. And Haman loves to be in the inner circle because he wants to be celebrated. So he's like, it's the queen, the king and me. Dope.
Seth: Yes. It's his celebrated. Like, his name as the celebrated one is like, it's coming true.
David: That's right.
Seth: And Esther throws this elaborate banquet, and the king says it again. What, my queen, would you want up to half my kingdom? She's like, let's do this again. Just do it one more time. And then I'll tell you. This is when Haman goes home, gets excited about everything with his wife, but sees Mordecai, who refuses to bow to him, wrecks the giant. The giant tree and goes to the king's room, where it just so happens.
David: That he's reading this book about Mordecai.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And this is when we talked about that last episode.
Seth: So go back and listen to all that.
David: So then the next feast comes.
Seth: Yes. So before that, we just make sure we say it again. He ends up honoring Mordecai, celebrating Mordecai. And being celebrated himself, his wife prophesies, you will surely fall before this seed if he is from the Jews. That's right, the seed of the Jews. You will surely fall before him. And immediately in the text, the guards come to pick him up. In that moment, to the second feast, another feast happens, just like the first one. He makes the same magnanimous gesture. What do you want, my queen? Up to half my kingdom. And this. And so one commentator said, like, she's actually being pretty crafty here, because, like, he now, three times, has promised half his kingdom. Half his kingdom. So even if it's hyperbolic, there's an expectation by anybody who would have watched it.
David: Yeah.
Seth: But that he is obligated to do this.
David: He's got to do it now or.
Seth: He'Ll lose face or he'll look like a idiot king or like, whatever it is.
David: Smart move.
Seth: Smart move on Esther's part.
David: Yep.
Seth: And she says, my people are going to be killed.
David: Which Is that her coming out?
Seth: Yes, she. That's right.
David: That's her coming out.
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So this is my people. My people. The first time she identifies herself as a Jew.
David: That's interesting. Wow. Yeah. My people. Yeah. Because she was. She kept it quiet up until then, I think, which is. It's also really interesting that if this is. If this is where she came out, that it happened right after the proclamation of the power of the seed of the Jews from his wife. So do you have it?
Seth: Yep.
David: Okay.
Seth: Verse seven, verse four. For we have been sold. I am my people, to be destroyed, to be killed, and to be annihilated. Now, King Xerxes probably doesn't remember this, but this is exactly the language of the edict that Haman made all the way back in Esther 3. To be killed, to be destroyed, to be killed and to be annihilated. That was the edict. And so she's repeating it back to him. If you have been. If we'd been sold merely as slaves, men and women, I would have been silent. Which is, like, fascinating.
David: Yeah.
Seth: I was like, I don't quite.
David: She's like, I'm already a slave here. It feels like.
Seth: Right.
David: You know?
Seth: For our affliction is not to be compared with the loss of the king. Then King Ahasuerus said to the queen Esther, who is he? And where is he who has dared to do this?
David: Which is an ironic thing to say.
Seth: Yeah, where is he?
David: Show me where. It's like whenever you're in the supermarket and you're like, I've been looking everywhere for the dish soap. You know, store clerk, where's the dish soap? And it's like right next to you when you're asking them, have you ever done that? So embarrassing. That's what's happening here.
Seth: That's exactly what's happening here. And we should also notice. I forget who pointed this out, but up until about Esther, chapter five, multiple years are passing.
David: Yes. Like, and then this is just slowing down now. It's like one day is taking the.
Seth: Majority over the course of a couple of hours. And so like you're getting individual lines of dialogue. Who did this? Who dared to do this? And then it shows a foe, an enemy, this wicked Haman.
David: It's so intense.
Seth: And Haman was terrified before the king. The king goes out in a rage.
David: Yeah.
Seth: I don't know. I mean, he just goes out in a rage.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Haman begs for mercy.
David: He's probably embarrassed.
Seth: Yeah. He is his chief political advisor.
David: He's allowed to just make decisions for him.
Seth: Right.
David: Blindly.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Literally by now has him in a bind where he has to affirm this thrice over promise he's made to his queen in front of everybody. But it's, it's having to give up his right hand man that he's trusted in front of everybody. Right, so he's like ironically embarrassed.
Seth: Yes. And even if you go back to Esther 3, when he makes the edict, Mordecai never mentions the name of the people. Like, he never tells them, I want to kill the Jews.
David: Haman.
Seth: Haman never says I want to kill the Jews. He just says, there's this people. So he was just like, oh, sure, whatever. Do whatever you want, Haman. And like he's, he didn't even. Like he signed his name to something he didn't know. So you're rising. He's embarrassed on multiple levels. He's embarrassing.
David: Which nothing would give this kind of a king more rage than embarrassment. Losing face.
Seth: Yes, exactly. Right. He goes out in a rage, probably more over that.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And when he comes back in, he finally sees a justification that gets him out from under that incompetent charge.
David: Haman is probably begging for mercy at Esther's feet.
Seth: But ironically, it's interpreted as assault.
David: Yeah. He looks, it looks like he's trying to assault her in his own chambers.
Seth: Yes.
David: Yeah. And so that is the charges for which he's. He's hanged.
Seth: Yeah. And that's why he's hung. Not because he tried to kill Esther. Right. Because that would implicate him in signing this law. Into the land. But he looks like he's assaulting his wife. And so that's why he kills him right there.
David: Which is like, I think I said this in the last episode, which is ironic because the king assaulted Esther first and yet Haman dies for it.
Seth: Yes. Yes.
David: So many ironies here.
Seth: Yes.
David: Ridiculous.
Seth: Yes. So that's the story. That's the story.
David: Yeah. So let's kind of do our work now to go back through and first say, like, who should we be seeing God as in this story? There's an exilic people of God reading this book. And what are we to see? I mean, I think one, we're to see that God provides a deliverer for his people.
Seth: Yeah. When it looks like no God exists. There's always a deliverer for his people. Someone will come, there will be a deliverer who will rise from another place. There will always be a deliverer for God's people.
David: That's right.
Seth: In the empire, there will always be a deliverer.
David: And like, that's something they're used to. A deliverer, an intercessor, someone to go before the king. This is a role that Israel is used to seeing occupied.
Seth: Right.
David: I mean, this was. This was Moses.
Seth: Yep.
David: You know, this was Aaron.
Seth: Yeah.
David: This has been the Levitical priesthood.
Seth: It's David.
David: This is David.
Seth: Yes. Like, we haven't even gone through the historical books where like all this happens, but there's been king after king after king who's supposed to represent God's people and provide security and power for them. Security and like protection for them. They're used to this category of person. So the queen is acting in those same veins.
David: Yes.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah. And then there's also this, this idea too of what Mordecai said about, like, who knows, you know? You know, if you've been brought to this place for such time as this.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Where it's just like that is. I feel like that this whole, this whole little piece of dialogue from Mordecai is proof that the. That. That God wasn't left out of this book. Spitefully but carefully.
Seth: Yeah.
David: That it was like. That is the most well worded sentence to leave God out of.
Seth: Yeah.
David: It's like, who knows if you have been. It's like God could have put you here, you know, like would have been a way easier way to say it.
Seth: Maybe God has us here for a moment.
David: Yeah. Maybe God has us here for. No, it's the. But it's not what he said.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And I think it's because to an exilic people, that's the question they ask all the time. Who knows? Who knows if maybe for such a time as this, like, and it's like, I think we often co opt this phrase to be like. To be kind of like, man, this is the, this is the purpose for my life for such a time as this. I've been brought to this place and I don't think that's wrong to do. I really don't. But I think in this, in this exilic context, it's like, that is a question that the people of God ask. They're under the threat of death constantly.
Seth: They're.
David: They are cut off from God and they're asking the question, who knows? And he turns that question around, says, yeah, who knows if this isn't God's time to shine, Right? Like, if this isn't God's plan. I think that's the thing.
Seth: Yeah, I mean, I think, I mean, even like the move to. When I moved up to Kansas City, it was like, is this what God is calling us to? Is this God doing this? Is this my desires? I feel like we're always confronted with things we don't know. Who knows what's happening right now? And the answer the book of Esther gives us. It always involves God.
David: It always involves God.
Seth: It always involves not just God. It involves the rescuer.
David: Yes. The deliverer.
Seth: There is a. There is. You are going to be delivered from something always, even if you don't know what it is.
David: Right. And even if you took the wrong path, God's still going to rise up. A deliverer.
Seth: Yes.
David: There is good news.
Seth: Yeah, that is good news. Because, like, it goes back to what Paul says in Romans 8 when he says, why can't I remember a really famous passage of Scripture where it talks about good coming from bad things, good.
David: Coming from bad things.
Seth: He says all things.
David: Oh. Romans 8, 28. Yes. Why can't I remember this right now? All things work to the good of those who love God and are called according to his purpose.
Seth: Thank you, David.
David: You're very welcome.
Seth: My mind is gone. My mind is gone. All those who are called by God according to his purpose, regardless of where you are, you have been called there by God. And regardless if it looks like God's not present, he's rescuing you and working good for his people in the middle of the empire.
David: Yes. And far from just a blatant resignation to that fact of, well, I guess I'll just go sit in the harem until death comes. It's that fact should cause Us to step out in even more radical faith.
Seth: Yes.
David: Because God is here. And if I. If it kills me, that's fine. If I perish, when I perish, I perish. I'm gonna die anyway. Let's go for it, you know, because it's like God's in control and he can move the heart of the king.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like she. I think in that moment, Esther, hopefully in her heart, knew who actually was whispering in the ear of Xerxes. It wasn't only Haman.
Seth: Yeah. You know, God was the one behind the. There's a power behind the power. There's a power behind the empire. The evil empire behind the empire. But there's a power even behind that.
David: Yes. That's in control.
Seth: Deeper magic. The dawn.
David: There is a deeper magic. Yes.
Seth: And this goes back to, like, the idea of coincidence. So we've talked, we kind of mentioned it a while ago, where there's nothing in the story that's outside of God's control. And that's evidenced by the fact that there's just so many coincidences in the book of this book that you're kind of forced to conclude they can't just be coincidences.
David: Right.
Seth: We don't just happen to be where we are. So it's like. It just so happens that a Jew is favored above of all the women in the harem.
David: Right.
Seth: Why her?
David: Yeah.
Seth: Specifically, why a Jew, one of the promised people of God? And it just so happens that her one night with the king is enough to make her queen.
David: Right.
Seth: It just so happens that Mordecai is sitting by the gate and he overhears a conspiracy. It just so happens that the king accepts Esther into the courtroom. It just so happens the king can't sleep one night. Just so happens his reader pulls off the annals of the feats of Mordecai and just so happens to open up the page where Mordecai is doing something. And it just so happens that Mordecai or Haman walks into that one moment.
David: And it just so happens that he says this one thing.
Seth: Yes. All these coincidences should lead people in the Empire, citizens of the empire, to recognize that God is always working good for his people, even when he can't see it.
David: Yeah, absolutely. That's really good. That's really good.
Seth: So here's a question.
David: Yeah, let's go. What's the question?
Seth: What does this tell us about how you mentioned it? I think a couple episodes back about being in the world, but not of it. So Esther and Mordecai both Are these kind of morally compromised characters? They seem like citizens of the empire, but they also are the redemptive figures of the story. They're what point us to Jesus.
David: Yeah.
Seth: The point of the book of Esther isn't to be more like Esther or be more like Mordecai. It's to be confident in the God who not just controls the kings, but the empire behind the kings. Like, he's working all things to destroy the ancient conspiracy against God's people. He's doing that.
David: Yes.
Seth: That's the main point.
David: I would agree. Yeah.
Seth: But at the same time, if we are like Esther, if we are like Mordecai, like, renamed under the shadow of, like, the colossus called America or China or wherever we find ourselves, like, what does it mean for us to be faithful exiles or morally compromised exiles? Like.
David: Yeah.
Seth: What?
David: Yeah, well, I mean, I think, like, in Mordecai, we can see someone who did not allow the overshadowing affluence or oppression of the empire to squelch his faith in the promises of God.
Seth: Yeah.
David: That he knew that even though the most powerful king who's been around sits on that throne, and he knew that the most deadly edict that has ever been signed is now circulating the empire and the. And, like, even though he knew that this holocaust was about to take place of his people, he still said, God will raise up a deliverer, even if you're not the one, Esther.
Seth: Yeah.
David: That is insane faith. I think if I was him and I had the faith to ask Esther to do that, I would have been like, help me, Obi Wan Kenobi. You're our only hope. Like, you're the only one who can do this. Only you. You're our la. If you don't do it, no one will. I wouldn't have the faith to say, even though you are the queen and you could actually stop this whole thing, even if you don't do it, God will fix it. I don't. I'm just like, that is some faith. Faith in exile is.
Seth: Yeah.
David: That is an intense thing that I want a pattern. Like, I would love to have that faith at Mordecai had.
Seth: Yeah. I'm also thinking about, like, even Esther's resignation. Like, I think the choices in front of us can seem impossible. Like, there's all sorts of situations in our life where we lose, lose that are lose, lose. You just can't choose a good thing or it's between two really great things or means saying goodbye or farewell to one really important thing. Resignation is not A lack of faith. Being willing to say, like, man, whatever happens, happens. But I do trust that God will save us.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Like, I know the arc of history is towards God saving his people and being good to his people, so I'll trust that.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Even though I kind of feels like, lose, lose.
David: Yeah. That's good.
Seth: So, like, they're like, I think, like, for a lot of people in the middle of impossible situations, like, no. Like, resignation is not a lack of faith. Like, we kind of portrayed it that way when we walk through the story.
David: Definitely. Yeah.
Seth: But, like, it's not. Not faith.
David: Yeah.
Seth: It's not. Not trust.
David: Yeah. Like I said, that resignation was somehow a holy resignation because it gave her the bravery she needed to put her life on the line.
Seth: Yeah.
David: She could have enjoyed the comforts of the heron for a little bit longer.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Which is what a lot of us do in exile.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like in the. In the empire, a lot of us don't go well. You know, I could speak out or share the. Share the gospel with my neighbor or. Or I could maintain the status quo just a little bit longer, even though I know the result is going to be the same.
Seth: Yeah.
David: I'm gonna be dead, and it's all gonna be over.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And it's like that. But a holy resignation leads us to take radical steps of faith.
Seth: Yeah. It takes God at his word that he has good intentions for us.
David: Okay, I'm gonna stop. Stomp on the brakes.
Seth: Okay.
David: Because we broke our own rule a little bit here. I know that we, like, not really a spoken gospel rule, but I know when you and I preach.
Seth: Yeah.
David: We always want to talk about Jesus before we talk about ourselves.
Seth: Okay. Yeah.
David: We haven't done that yet.
Seth: Okay.
David: And so. Because ultimately, Esther isn't about us. Like, the. The person of Esther.
Seth: Right.
David: Is not primarily an example for us.
Seth: Yeah.
David: She is another prism, another color, another shade through which we get to see what Jesus has perfectly done for us.
Seth: Yes.
David: Because Jesus, like Esther, went into the king's inner court.
Seth: Yeah.
David: He went into the holy of holies, where if he. He's allowed to enter.
Seth: Yeah.
David: But if he was wearing our sin.
Seth: Yeah.
David: If all our dressings of sin were on him and he went into that inner court, he would die.
Seth: Yeah.
David: But he would die for us. He would bear our sins. And like, that is what he did. He went into the holy of holies where the curtain was torn on the cross. He did that for us, and he went before the King when we couldn't, and he laid his life down the line. But God did not extend the golden scepter to him to save his life. He laid his life down for us so that we wouldn't be Haman on the other side.
Seth: Right.
David: You know, like, so that we can actually be forgiven. And, like, I just. I love that picture of Esther being this intercessor who goes into the holy of holies and stands before the king at the cost of her life.
Seth: She represents the lives of everyone who's trusting in her. Like, we don't really know how many. It seems like very few people knew that she was Jewish.
David: Right. And she hit it.
Seth: And she hit it.
David: Yeah.
Seth: But hypothetically, all those people in exile reading the story of Esther while they're in exile are looking for someone like Esther to represent their lives in an empire of death.
David: She bore all the potential death of her people on her shoulders when she entered into that holy of holies place.
Seth: Yes. If she went in there and died.
David: The people would have died with her.
Seth: The people would have died with her. And this is why I'm trying to think through, like, Xerxes is not the God of the Bible.
David: No.
Seth: He's being portrayed as a God of.
David: The Bible, but, like, a broken, wicked version.
Seth: Broken, wicked version.
David: This is what happens when we replace.
Seth: The God of the Bible, a in the wicked. Fascinatingly, the wicked. The wicked king keeps Esther alive, but the good king kills the one who comes into the throne room because the.
David: One who comes in the throne room is himself. Oh, that's why. Yeah, that's why it's still good news. That's why he's still a good king, because good king Xerxes or bad King Xerxes, would have done anything to save face, to make sure he came out smelling like roses and to maintain his own power and authority.
Seth: Yeah.
David: God, the true king, lays all of that down. He enters into the throne room knowing full well it will cost him his life and his. When I perish, I perish is fixed in time. It's an hour set. When he goes to the cross.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like that. That is what's happening.
Seth: And when he comes as Haman, like, carrying, like, the expectations of life, like, the hope of life for all the people, and he dies, it guarantees the life of everybody else.
David: Yes.
Seth: Like, Esther, in that moment isn't just representing the lives of all the other people. She's coming bearing the edict against God's people. Right. Like, because, like, she's saying, you're. You have. There is this edict in the land that all my God's people will be.
David: Killed there's death decreed over all my people.
Seth: This edict needs to die.
David: Yes.
Seth: And so that's. Haman represents he dies.
David: That's right.
Seth: And we talked about this in the ironic reversal one. Jesus, in an ironic twist, actually becomes Haman.
David: Yes.
Seth: He represents the edict that was supposed to kill all of God's people. And he dies. That. That edict dies with him.
David: That's right. The edict that was signed against us that says death is what's coming for you.
Seth: Yes.
David: Jesus died to overturn. Yes, that's right. Yeah. I just want to say it again just in case in a tizzy you guys missed it last episode. The word that is probably in your Bible is gallows.
Seth: Yeah.
David: For this thing. It is the same word tree.
Seth: Right.
David: Like, and that is what? Like in Deuteronomy 21, it says curses anyone who's hanging on a tree.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Both the word hanged and tree are the same here in the. In the Esther story and in Deuteronomy.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And then the Bible quotes that in the New Testament to talk about what happened to Jesus.
Seth: Yeah.
David: He is the hanged one on the tree. Like, literally, like, he. Like, without really going far out of its way. The New Testament says Jesus is Haman, like.
Seth: Yeah.
David: In a. In a horrific way. Because he's the Satan figure.
Seth: Right.
David: It's so weird. It's so ironic.
Seth: The Haman and the edict of death over all of God's people is hanged on the cross.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And ironically, the edict itself is cursed. And when two negative like. Two negatives make a positive like, so the edict is cursed. That means life for all God's people. Jesus becomes a curse for us. He becomes sin for us as he's hanging on the cross and brings life to all people as he.
David: That's so I kind of wanted to try to save the next the new edict for the next episode, but I can't after you said that, because this is imputed. Righteousness is a really difficult concept to get our heads around.
Seth: Define it.
David: I will. But like, it's such a beautiful picture of these two edicts. So they're. So imputed righteousness is the idea that basically I took all my sin and I put it on Jesus. That's not imputed righteousness. That's atonement. Right. Jesus atoned for my sin. My sins deserve death. I put them on Jesus and in his body they died.
Seth: Yeah. But then I made at one, I made a piece. I made clear.
David: That's right. But then Jesus has all of this righteousness and goodness and perfection that allows him to Enter into the throne room of God. Like everything good about him. Like, we took off our sin and puts on. Put on him. He takes off his goodness and puts on us.
Seth: Yeah.
David: He gives us his life and his goodness, his righteousness, his perfect standing before God is now our own. That is what's happening in these edicts. So you have this edict that says death is coming for you, but when that edict died, a new one was written, and it says, now life is coming to you.
Seth: Yes.
David: And death to your enemies. Yeah, like freedom. This is freedom, is what he said. I'm killing your enemies and giving you life instead of letting your enemies take your life.
Seth: I don't know why nobody's used that example for imputed righteousness.
David: It's really beautiful.
Seth: It's like the curse is gone, the sentence of death is gone, and there's new life for you and the destruction of all your enemies.
David: Or another perfect example of imputed righteousness in this story is where did Haman end up and where did Mordecai end up? Haman ended up impaled on the tree.
Seth: Right.
David: Mordecai ended up riding around on the king's horse with the king's robe, and now sits at the king's right hand.
Seth: The same position that.
David: The same position. That's where we get to go. Yeah, we're now get. We get to go to the right hand of God. Like, we. And we get his clothes. God wraps us up in his clothes.
Seth: And like the empire used to be run by the king and his vizier, his consigliere, his demonic consigliere. Now because of Jesus, death and resurrection, Jesus sits on the throne, and we sit with him. We are his advisors. We sit in council with him over the demonic evil empire of the world.
David: Yeah.
Seth: I mean, Ephesians 2, that's.
David: Yeah, that's imputed righteousness.
Seth: Yeah, that's cool.
David: That's cool. Oh, so neat. I love this book.
Seth: It's a really awesome book.
David: Oh, okay. Well, we'll wrap up next week with the. The final edict that goes out. We kind of talked about. We'll wrap up with the. The feasts, the idea of Purim and all these things.
Seth: Yeah, goodbye.
David: All right, that's enough for me. All right, well, thank you guys for joining us. We'll see you next time.
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