Esther 4-8 Part 1: Ironic Reversals
About This Episode
Esther is full of irony. Without a proper understanding of how irony works in literature, the masterful beauty of this book would be missed. In this episode, David and Seth talk about the ironic reversals that occur throughout the middle section of Esther, specifically focusing on Haman.
Irony and Divine Reversal in the Book of Esther
Show Notes
In this episode of the Spoken Gospel Podcast, hosts David Bowden and Seth Stewart dive deep into the themes of irony and divine reversal in the Book of Esther. They explore how God works through seemingly coincidental events to bring about justice and salvation for His people, even when He is not explicitly mentioned in the text.
The Concept of Irony in Esther
David and Seth begin by defining irony as pursuing one thing but receiving its opposite through that very pursuit. They use examples from pop culture, like the Roadrunner cartoons, to illustrate this concept. In Esther, irony is seen most clearly in the character of Haman, whose name means "celebrated one." Haman seeks honor and celebration but ends up being humiliated and executed on the very gallows he built for his enemy Mordecai. This ironic reversal is a key theme throughout the book.
God's Justice Through Ironic Consequences
David and Seth then discuss how God often allows people to experience the natural, ironic consequences of their sinful desires and actions as a form of judgment. They cite several Psalms that describe this pattern of the wicked falling into their own traps. They argue that the poetic justice seen throughout Esther points to God's sovereign hand at work, even though He is never explicitly mentioned. This serves as an apologetic to demonstrate God's existence and involvement to those who might doubt.
Jesus as the Ultimate Ironic Savior
Drawing parallels between Esther/Mordecai and Jesus, David and Seth show how Christ's death on the cross is the ultimate example of ironic reversal. Like Mordecai, Jesus is persecuted by religious authorities. But unlike Mordecai, Jesus actually dies on the "tree" (cross) that was meant for his enemies. Through this ironic death, Jesus absorbs the punishment humans deserve and defeats sin, death, and evil empires. His resurrection then becomes the greatest reversal, as He rises to power through death itself.
The Ongoing Tension of God's Kingdom vs. Earthly Empires
While Esther ends with some resolution for the Jews, the Persian Empire still stands and continues to tax God's people. David and Seth discuss how this points to the incomplete nature of earthly deliverances and the need for a more comprehensive salvation. They argue that Jesus' work on the cross provides this by defeating both the power of death and the internal bent towards sin in believers' hearts. However, there remains an ongoing tension as God's kingdom grows within but has not yet fully overthrown earthly empires.
Conclusion: Finding True Satisfaction in Christ
The episode concludes by emphasizing how Jesus not only takes the punishment for our misplaced desires but also provides true fulfillment for them. Unlike the ironic consequences of sin, pursuing Christ leads to genuine satisfaction, purpose, and identity. David and Seth encourage listeners to identify areas where they've fallen into ironic traps and bring those to Jesus for redemption and "untwisting."
Intro: Welcome to the Spoken Gospel Podcast. Spoken Gospel is a nonprofit dedicated to the idea that every part of the Bible, Old Testament and New, is about Jesus. And this podcast is our experiment to publicly test that belief. Every episode, hosts David Bowden and Seth Stewart work through a biblical text to see how it helps us see and savor Jesus. Let's jump in.
David: All right, well, welcome everyone to the Spoken Gospel Podcast. Thank you so much for joining us.
Seth: Welcome.
David: Seth - how are you feeling for round two of Esther?
Seth: Oh, so good. Yeah, so good.
David: Okay.
Seth: I have salad.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Light.
David: I did not. I had like, a chicken sandwich, but, like, it was grilled chicken, but, you.
Seth: Know, still feel light, caffeinated, ready to go.
David: That's good.
Seth: Talk about divine irony.
David: Yes. So this is episode two for us in the Book of Esther. It's also our second episode of the YouTube broadcast of the Spoken Gospel podcast.
Seth: Not look at the camera this time.
David: And you're not going to look at the camera. You know, you should do, like, one little gym look. You know, where you're just like, he said that. Really? And you look at the camera. But anyway, if you're joining us on podcast only. That's good. You can win. The only thing you're missing is Seth's awkward faces. So.
Seth: They're so good.
David: But anyway. All right, so last time we talked about mainly the theme of exile and kingship.
Seth: Yes.
David: We talked about how Israel's in exile from the promised land. They're wondering where God is and if God is still active and can care for them, which is why his name is not mentioned in the whole book.
Seth: That's right.
David: And we also talked about how King Xerxes is really a puppet king who has no. Like, he has all the power in the world and no power. And we're supposed to see in him a paradigm for all the evil empires of the world.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And we saw how, in a real sense, we are still in both exile and. And under other evil empires today.
Seth: Yes, that's exactly right. And I was even thinking as we were starting, like, Xerxes has proven to be out of power. Like, he's this really powerful king. His laws are unchangeable. He rules the whole earth, but he's constantly, at the whim of his advisors. We talk about how their advisors kind of act like the satanic or the demonic delegates of the empire behind the Haman in particular. And it kind of reveals that, like, Xerxes is in control.
David: Yeah, someone else's.
Seth: Someone else's. Yeah, like a demonically energized empire. Is. And what's fascinating is that we too, like, that's. We like to assume we are in control of our own lives. But to the extent that we buy into our culture's narratives about power, beauty, sex, privilege, acclaim, fame, celebrity, which we'll talk about. Haman means celebrity. I mean, celebrated one. We'll talk about that, like, to whatever. So we buy into those narratives is actually the extent to which we are controlled by the empire. So it's not just that they're like, we are not as autonomous as we think we are.
David: That's good. That's a good way to put it.
Seth: There's an evil empire actually controlling us, and the more we buy into it, the more controlled we are.
David: Which is another way to think about, like, how we were slaves to sin. I think this is just a very helpful visual of being a slave to sin. Is being like a part of and entwined with the empire.
Seth: Yes. Yeah. You think you're the king. You think you're King Xerxes and you actually have the shallow veneer. You've got the opulence, you've got the self indulgence, you've got the sex, you've got the beauty. But behind it all, you're kind of just a drunken pushover.
David: Yeah. And you're also just. All you're doing is the whim of an evil consigliere whispering in your ear.
Seth: And what's fascinating is the people that are saved, the people who are actually put in control are people who trust that they're. That know they are out of control, that know that they do not have power.
David: That's an interesting. And we're going to talk about irony because maybe we can use this to talk about it. But that is a really interesting irony that those who feel out of control, Mordecai, Esther.
Seth: Yes.
David: Are actually the ones in control who.
Seth: Will be placed in power.
David: Yeah.
Seth: I mean, it's like God humbles the proud.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Grace to the humble.
David: So cool.
Seth: So it's like we see that really vividly, like, played out in the story of Esther and the Empire.
David: Right. So we're going to talk a lot about irony today.
Seth: Yes.
David: Let's get up to where we are in the point of the story. So the king throws an opulent feast. He's drunk for 187 days, brings Queen Vashti out and is like, hey, look at her beauty. But she refuses to come. So he does.
Seth: He. He banishes her.
David: He doesn't kill her, he just banishes her, sends out an edict Saying that all women must submit to their husbands, and in the. In doing so, kind of airs all his dirty laundry and his entire kingdom. To the entire kingdom.
Seth: His advisors suggest a sexual beauty contest.
David: Yep. To pick a new queen where he will be the worst version of ABC's Bachelor.
Seth: Yes.
David: And he will have sex with as many women as he wants until he finds the one that pleases him. And Esther gets sexually trafficked, kidnapped, and brought into the king's prison harem to beautify herself for a year before being presented to him to have forced sex with him.
Seth: Yeah. And she wins the king's favor. Yes. Morai endorses this.
David: Yep.
Seth: And Haman, during this time, rises to power.
David: Yes. And so. And we talked last episode about how Morai and Haman are the central. Really the central characters in this story. And. And Morai is a descendant of Saul, and Haman is a descendant of the king Agog and Amalekites.
Seth: They're two individuals who are emblematic of this, like, divine war that's been happening for centuries and centuries and centuries between.
David: The seed of the serpent evil and the seed of the woman's good.
Seth: Yes.
David: And these things are coming to a head now in this story. And the question is, who's in control? How are God's people going to be saved? Has God forgotten his people? Are we all subject to the whims of drunk kings? What's going on?
Seth: That's exactly right.
David: We come to this place, and this is where, really the. This. Where we see the central story that people are used to thinking about when they think about the Book of Esther.
Seth: If I perish, I perish.
David: If I perish, I perish. Which is interesting. Super interesting, because actually.
Seth: Let's tell a story.
David: Okay, let's tell a story, because I just want to get to that. It blew my mind.
Seth: So Haman writes the edict. All the Jews will be killed. So we didn't even say that part. Mordecai. Mordecai refuses to bow to Haman, who is in power.
David: Yes.
Seth: Haman, as emblematic of this ancient battle, doesn't just want to destroy Mordecai, always.
David: Been seeking to crush the head of.
Seth: God's righteous seed, wants to wipe out all Jews everywhere.
David: Yes.
Seth: He gets the king drunk at a feast, at a banquet, and they sign this rule into law. Mordecai now brings this to the attention of Esther. And Esther, he expects her to do something about it because she's the queen now. Really tellingly, she hasn't seen her husband in 30 days. She's not in a position of power she shouldn't expect, as the queen doesn't really expect to have a position of power. So she is worried that if she goes into the king's presence without permission, she'll be killed.
David: That's right.
Seth: And she is supposed to tell the king that his wife is about to be destroyed by Haemon's plot, but she's not really convinced that he'll actually care enough or want that from her.
David: And ironically, she's supposed to go in and tell him that she's about to be killed by Haman's plot. But if she goes in and tells the king that she's gonna be killed, she might be killed just by going to see the king, which is a very ironic tension.
Seth: Why don't we define ir?
David: Yes, we need to do that.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Because let's start with this irony. If you got your definition of irony from the. The song Isn't it Ironic?
Seth: I don't know you.
David: Everyone except you knows this song.
Seth: Really? I've never heard this.
David: And it's like. It's like rain on your wedding day.
Seth: Okay.
David: It's a free ride when you've already paid.
Seth: Okay.
David: It's good advice that you just didn't take. These are. These are like. And then it's like, isn't it ironic? And it's like. It's like 10,000 spoons when all you need is a knife. None of these are irony.
Seth: These are actual lyrics.
David: These are the lyrics from the song. None of those are ironic, though. Those are all inconveniences.
Seth: Yeah.
David: None of them are ironic.
Seth: Right, Right.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Because I think the way that I've understood irony, or I think a helpful way to understand it, is doing, searching, trying, grasping for one thing, but receiving its opposite.
David: By the way that you tried to get that.
Seth: Yeah. Like doing one thing. And in doing that one thing, it implies the oppos result, you actually get the opposite. Right. So I think the best analogy is like, is the roadrunner. If you ever watch the Roadrunner, it's. The entire show is based on an ironic premise. The coyote, no matter how hard he tries, cannot catch the roadrunner because the elaborate trap he sets for the roadrunner is what he ends up getting ensnared in. In himself.
David: Yes.
Seth: Without fail, every single time.
David: Yeah. He. He raises the anvil on a rope that's. That's anchored to a tree and he ties it off. And as soon as the roadrunner comes and eats the bird seed, it's supposed to fall down and crush the. But it doesn't. The roadrunner comes and eats the food. The anvil dangles overhead and doesn't stop. And the roadrunner runs off and he's like, the trap must not work. So he goes over to test it to be like, what's wrong with this thing? And the anvil falls on him.
Seth: That's exactly right.
David: He's caught in his own trap.
Seth: How many seasons.
David: I don't know whether the roadrunner.
Seth: Because I was thinking about that, like.
David: What a perennially gratifying concept irony is.
Seth: Irony is the way is hilarious.
David: It is very funny.
Seth: It's hilarious. And I was actually teaching this book to our students and like, I was just narrating the story. And when I finally got to the point. We'll talk about in a second in chapter six, where Haman and Mordecai's roles are reversed.
David: Yes.
Seth: Everyone starts laughing. I was like, that's this response you should have. It is kind of hilarious.
David: Tragic comedy.
Seth: Yes.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So let's just get. Let's get to that point. So that's what irony is. Roadrunner, cartoon show.
David: And you were telling me one of the definition of irony I was. I thought was helpful because it's. It's less kiddy.
Seth: Yeah, yeah.
David: Which was the one about beauty, but I can't remember it about like, if you. If you. If beauty is your greatest thing.
Seth: Yeah, yeah. So there's a author, his name is David Foster Wallace.
David: Yeah, yeah.
Seth: So he's like. He won a ton of awards. He committed suicide not too long ago. Fascinating author. I wrote a paper on his book Infinite Jest without actually ever reading it. But anyway, he has this really profound quote. He was an atheist and he said this in the day to day trenches of adult life. There's actually no such thing as atheism. There's no such thing as not worshiping. Everybody worships. The only choice we get is what we worship. And he says this. Anything that you worship will eat you alive. If you worship money and things, if they are where you tap real meaning in life, then you'll never have enough, Never feel you have enough. It's the truth. Worship your body and beauty and sexual allure, and you will feel ugly. And when time and age start showing, you will die a million deaths before they finally grieve you. Really profound insight. And what he's pointing out is like there's this ironic way that when we worship or trust something as ultimate, it has this way of like curving background and doing exactly the opposite of what we hope for. We worship beauty, we always feel ugly. We worship money.
David: We always feel poor.
Seth: We always feel poor. And we could always have more. And so the Book of Esther actually does a really good job of giving us a really vivid example of Haman trying to pursue one thing and getting the opposite. And this is where his name comes in.
David: Yep.
Seth: So his name, it means celebrity. Yeah. Celebrated one.
David: Yeah, the celebrated one.
Seth: And what's. In the first instance, we meet Haman, what does he want to be by Mordecai?
David: He wants to be honored.
Seth: He wants to bow down before me, celebrate first acts, celebrate the celebrated one, celebrate me because I'm in power. And Mordecai doesn't. Refuses to do it.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And he continues to refuse to celebrate Haman. So he goes to the king to enact this plan to hang Mordecai to make sure that he's killed. And he is celebrated universally by everyone. But when he goes to the king to make the. Oh, should we. Should I just tell more details of the story?
David: Yeah, you just keep going.
Seth: Oh, you keep going.
David: I'm, like, into it. I love this story. I love hearing it.
Seth: So he. It is funny. So he wants Mordecai to celebrate him.
David: Right.
Seth: He goes home and pouts to his wife.
David: Oh, yeah. And his family.
Seth: His family. And he's like, like, he's like, mordecai, this guy won't bow to me or whatever else, like, stupid. But it's like. But I'm great. Esther's invited me to feast. All this stuff's happening to me.
David: Which he doesn't know that the feast that Esther's inviting him to is a trap all along.
Seth: Yes.
David: It's hilarious.
Seth: So he goes out from this feast with his wife, like, boasting about his accomplishments and all in his family. Boasting about his accomplishments and his greatness and the fact that Esther's invited him to this great feast, which, by the way, we didn't even get to. If I perish, I perish.
David: Yeah, we'll get there. We'll circle back around.
Seth: We'll circle back around. And he meets Mordecai on his way out of his party with his wife. And Mordecai again refuses to bow to him. So Haman runs to the king's bedchambers to request an audience with him. He gets there, and the king just so happens to have been unable to sleep.
David: Yep. So he had a bedtime story brought in to be read to him to.
Seth: Help him sleep, and he reads the history of the acts of the king. So again, like, what a Great picture of his pride. Yes.
David: Read to me about the great things, all the great things I do.
Seth: And he realizes he never honored Mordecai.
David: For doing something he never celebrated. Mordecai celebrated Mordecai because earlier in the story we read about the fact that Mordecai had had heard about a conspiracy from two of the king's eunuchs to overthrow the king. He heard about it, reported it to Esther and the rebellion was quelched.
Seth: Right.
David: And so. But he never celebrated that which for a Syrian king was unheard of.
Seth: Right. It would have been a big misstep.
David: Big misstep. Because you always wanted to celebrate people for doing great things to you, for you to encourage other people to do great things for you. That was another way they consolidated power. Yeah, yeah.
Seth: I mean that's also like. Everyone does that. Every leader does that. Anyway, so he goes to the king, mad that Mordecai won't kill him. Mordecai won't bow to him. He starts constructing this 150 foot tall.
David: I thought was 50 cubits. Yeah, 50 cubits. And cubit is. Thought it was 18 inches. Oh, it was like 75ft or something.
Seth: 75Ft tall. Gallows, which.
David: The word gallo.
Seth: It just means tree.
David: It just means tree is the word for tree. It's eights, the Hebrew word aids, which is the same word, tree.
Seth: So more than likely that meant he.
David: It's a. It's a. It's a tall wooden stake that he.
Seth: Would have been impaled. Impaled upon and then hung 75ft up in the air.
David: That's right.
Seth: So he builds this thing and then he goes to.
David: Speaking of opulence.
Seth: Yeah.
David: 75 foot pole.
Seth: What was it on? It was supposed it's a symbol of his inflated ego. Yep.
David: We can leave it at that.
Seth: Yeah, it's like we can leave it.
David: There for people to pick up on what that means.
Seth: So he.
David: Interesting.
Seth: He's just like. So he goes fully expecting the king to ratify his decision to kill mortal.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And he walks into the room in a huff, angry. And the king interrupts him and he says, what would you do for the man, the king in whom the king delights to honor? And he's like, well, who the king delight to celebrate more than me?
David: Yeah. He's like, I'm the celebrated one.
Seth: What's going to great detail about how. What he should do to celebrate the 1. You should wear his robes and wear his rings and have a high official of the land parade him through the City.
David: On the king's horse.
Seth: On the king's horse.
David: Which I heard a commentator akin that to taking a ride in Air Force One.
Seth: Yes. Yeah, yeah. So a great example.
David: Yeah.
Seth: He should do all these things.
David: Hey, President. What? Like, man, what should I do, man? You should let me film our podcast in the Oval Office.
Seth: Yes.
David: And you should give me, like, a ride. A ride on Air Force One, Oklahoma.
Seth: City to Washington, D.C. and then your press secretary. Yes. Should tell the world about how great the podcast is. This is exactly.
David: And so, President, if you know, President.
Seth: So. So Xerxes is like, wonderful idea, Haman. Perfect idea. Celebrated one. Celebrate Haman.
David: Mordecai.
Seth: Mordecai. Celebrate Mordecai.
David: Not you.
Seth: Not you.
David: The one you came in here to huff at me about, Right. That you were. You wanted me to kill. I want you to go celebrate him.
Seth: Yes.
David: Irony.
Seth: Irony. So this is the central chapter of the entire book. It's the main point we're supposed to take from the Book of Esther. There is a divine reversal of fortunes. Haman is falling. Mordecai is ascending. So much so that when Haman goes home and talks to his wife about what just happened, she prophesies essentially. Did you read this?
David: I don't know if I know what you're talking about here.
Seth: So she prophesies this in verse 13. Then his wise men and his wife Zeresh said to him, if Mordecai, before whom you've begun to fall, is of the Jewish people, you will not overcome him, but you will surely fall before him.
David: Whoa.
Seth: So she prophesies that if this has already happened, you're going to die. And fascinatingly, she also uses the word seed.
David: No, she doesn't.
Seth: So it's not in our English translation. But if Mordecai, before whom you began to fall, is of the Jewish seed, you will not overcome him.
David: But she's repeating Genesis 3:15.
Seth: She's repeating the hope of Genesis 3:15 exactly. That there will be someone coming who crushed the head of the serpent.
David: She knows.
Seth: She's identifying her husband as that ancient serpent, which is what the book wants us to do. Which is what the book wants us to do. He's part of that empire that Saul was supposed to kill but didn't. And she's saying, if he is of the seed, the serpent crushing seed, you will most surely fall.
David: That's crazy.
Seth: He hears this, which is ironic.
David: Super ironic that the woman to whom he came for comfort ends up bringing him.
Seth: Yes.
David: The truth of destitution.
Seth: Oh, so much irony. He goes. Immediately the guards come to take him to Esther's second banquet, Right.
David: Which will circle back around to all these banquets.
Seth: And during that banquet, the king, drunk, says, what do you want, my queen? Up to the half of my kingdom for like the third time? And she says, well, somebody has sold my people into slavery. They're going to kill them.
David: Who is this?
Seth: Who is this man in a rage, this wicked Haman? And Haman, like, minutes ago, his wife had just announced his death.
David: And now he's crushed.
Seth: And now he's crushed. And Xerxes leaves angry, comes back, and something weird happens where he, like, trips or whatever.
David: Yeah, the language is weird there, but.
Seth: Like, Xerxes interprets it as an assault on his wife, which is exactly what he was actually trying to do.
David: Yes, he goes. Which is ironic because he did assault her sexually. Xerxes did.
Seth: Well, I was gonna say it's ironic because Haman is begging for mercy. But in the act of begging for mercy, it actually brings out the opposite. It brings about his judgment.
David: Oh, yeah.
Seth: So Xerxes sees this and then impales him on the same pole that he built for Mordecai. For Mordecai. And that's the big ironic twist of the Book of Esther.
David: Yes. That is crazy.
Seth: So it's like this sweeping story. I'm getting like lost in all the details, but it is.
David: Yeah. And yeah, it's super. That was well told.
Seth: Thank you.
David: That was well told.
Seth: Thank you.
David: So what are we supposed to see first here in this text? Like, oh, okay, what is this irony about? What is it pointing us to? Not just like this. Like, I fell in love with this book reading it recently. Like, this is great literature.
Seth: Oh, it's beautiful literature.
David: Very, very, very beautiful literature.
Seth: Beautiful literature.
David: So, but. And that's kind of what you just showed us in your narrative. But like, what? Like, what does it tell us about Yahweh, the unmentioned God in Esther?
Seth: You know, So I think what it should tell us is that the way that God normally deals with our pride and evil is the way that he deals with Haman. God will give us, let us pursue precisely what we want and let that curve background and destroy us. Yeah, he'll let us act just like Wile E. Coyote as much as we want. Set up all the traps, try to pursue your celebrity, pursue sexual allure, pursue money and things. And your punishment is not gonna be me smiting you from heaven. I'm not gonna send a hurricane because you guys legalize same sex marriage or whatever, right? Right. What I'm going to do is I'm gonna let you experience the ironic consequences of your actions. I'm gonna let your decisions eat you alive.
David: Right. And so would you say that this is kind of the same language that like the psalmist uses when he says, let them fall into the snare they.
Seth: Have set over and over again. So like Psalm 510, hold them guilty, O God, by their own devices let them fall. Psalm 7:15. The wicked man has dug a pit and hollowed it out, and he's fallen into the hole which he has dug. His mischief will return on his own head. That's the. That's the Roadrunner TV show. Yeah, it's exactly the Roadrunner. This one is fascinating to me. Psalm 37. David is writing a poem about the time that he was being pursued by King Saul and he was on the run from King Saul. And he calls King Saul wicked. And he says, the wicked have drawn their sword to slay those who are upright in conduct, referring to himself. Their sword will enter their own hearts. Wow. And then in first Samuel three, do you know how Samuel dies? The king Saul dies. He dies. He commits suicide on the same sword he chased David down with. Wow. His sword is pierced through his. Like he falls on his own sword. So like David's prayer for ironic justice comes true in Saul's life. Proverbs says it kind of the same way. Like there's a way that seems right to man, but it's way ends in wow.
David: And then you could take this all the way back to the tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil, couldn't you? That? Yes, it's the tree. And God said, if you eat this tree, you'll surely die. And they thought it would give them life, but all it brought them was death.
Seth: That's exactly right.
David: Like knowing good and evil for myself, providing for myself will be the best way for me to flourish and live in this world.
Seth: Yes.
David: And actually God says, no, that's actually what will cause you to die. Right.
Seth: So the beginning of the Bible is ironic. Is there is this ironic choice that's happening? Like there's like we, what we do think is going to bring us life, but by pursuing what we think is going to bring us life, it actually brings us death. So I think the case for like, what Esther uniquely teaches us is that this ironic reversal of our fortunes, like the disorderedness of our desires, always curves back around on us and will always come back to haunt us. Like it will always happen. And this is actually God's mode of judgment in the world. His like, primary mode by which he exercises justice.
David: Yeah. I long. I have a longing for sexual satisfaction and so I go to pursue it in an adulterous affair or pornographic website and all that does is. Is dehumanize other, other people. It, it makes me unsatisfied and like, or like you've, you've heard about, like, how, like I'm. This is. Right, this is going deep into some, like, waters here. But it's like, you know, you, you, you hear these guys who've spent so much time consuming pornography that nothing excites them anymore.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And it's like, that's, that would be an ironic.
Seth: Well, think about the king. He has hundreds of women at his disposal and the only thing that he can think that will excite him is a beauty contest where hundreds of brand new virgins are brought to him and he daily gets to sleep with another woman for several years. Totally. It's like.
David: Yeah. And yet he's still like getting sloshed drunk every night because he's completely.
Seth: And then he doesn't even commit himself to his wife and doesn't see her for 30 days. Like it's not enough.
David: No.
Seth: So I think David Foster Wallace is totally right. Like, the ironic justice of God is the thing that we worship, the thing that we trust, the thing that we, like, ironically look for life in is going to eat us alive.
David: Yeah.
Seth: I think that's what the book of Esther is like teaching us in the story of Haman too. And so Haman searched for a celebrity.
David: Yeah. He was searching for a celebrity. Yep. And it ended up bringing about the most dishonor that he could possibly face while also his life bringing the most honor to his greatest enemy.
Seth: Yeah. And I think it's so, like, it's funny, beautifully written, beautifully narrated. But the justice is so poetic, I think you're forced to conclude this must be God.
David: Yes. It's too perfect.
Seth: God is never mentioned.
David: Right.
Seth: But the justice is too poetic for it not to be true.
David: I think all of the irony, the justice, the coincidences, all of those point to one conclusion. No one planned this but God.
Seth: Right.
David: This wasn't this. Yeah. Yeah.
Seth: So think about then. Think about, like, think about, like, if you're not a believer listening to this, think about all the things like David Foster Wallace, like, tells you, like, what do you worship? Isn't it fascinating that the exact thing you wish you most had is the thing that you feel like you never have. Isn't there, like, a poetic justice to Our longings where we desire sexual or beauty, power, money. But the more we strive after those things, the more empty we feel, the less satisfied we feel, and the more like it's eating us alive.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Isn't there, like, a poeticness to the way a world looks without God that kind of clues you into the fact that maybe there actually is one.
David: Right.
Seth: I think that's also part of what's happening here. Like writing to Persians.
David: Yes.
Seth: Writing to people who assume there is no God.
David: This is an apologetic.
Seth: This is an apologetic look at how everything in life is actually its own ironic consequence. Poetic justice is everywhere. It's not just what we find funny in, like, Rail, like the Roadrunner cartoon, but it's what's true of, like, drug addicts too. Drug addicts search for control in taking cocaine. That feeling of willfulness, power, acceptance, or not accepted, but willfulness, power, ability. But people who are addicted to cocaine are the least likely. They're the most out of control people, you know? Right.
David: Like, the substance that they think gives them control is actually the thing spiraling their lives out of control.
Seth: Right. Why is everything designed so ironically?
David: Yeah.
Seth: You don't have irony without an author.
David: Yeah, that's so true.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Yeah. So it's an apologetic.
Seth: Yep.
David: And it's like we're supposed to see that this is the way that God does work in the universe and has worked throughout the entirety of the Bible. This is ultimately the fate that we are all consigned to. That bad news. Everybody, no matter what you choose to pursue in this life, will ultimately end in bringing a curse, punishment, and death to you. What you ultimately seek to bring you satisfaction will only bring you dissatisfaction and decimation.
Seth: Yes.
David: It's like, well, that sucks.
Seth: Yeah.
David: So, like, how does Jesus make this good news?
Seth: By irony.
David: Oh, okay.
Seth: So think about just the similarities between Jesus, the story of Jesus, the story of Mordecai and Esther that we've just narrated. So Jesus, like Mordecai, is persecuted by people in power who hate him because he rejects their authority and their importance.
David: Yes.
Seth: The Pharisees are mad that Jesus doesn't recognize their authority, importance, and they jealously seek to try to kill him. The Pharisees, just like Haman, plot to kill Jesus with silver.
David: They buy him with silver.
Seth: Jesus, like Mordecai, is paraded through a city riding on a donkey while the people shout praises. And the Pharisees, like, fume jealously. Haman, like the religious authorities, collaborate with the political powers to erect this giant tree in which to kill Jesus. Mordecai on Judas, like Haman, seals the deal with several pieces of silver. We already said this. And here's the ironic part of all this. Unlike Mordecai and like Haman, Jesus is hung on the tree. So we expect, if the reversals to be true. Mordecai, Jesus, the new Jew, to reign, to rule.
David: Something's gonna happen. He's carrying the cross. The closer he gets to Golgotha, the closer he gets, the more the Jewish author who's attuned to the story of Esther, is expecting a Roman soldier to go up there, or Pilate to go up there, or Caesar to go up there. He's gonna do something. What's he gonna do? Everyone's waiting. What's he gonna do? And then he gets up there, like Haman. Like Haman, and he's hanged. And he has people saying to him, save yourself. Oh, you who could save others. Ironically, you can't save yourself. Fascinating, interesting.
Seth: Jesus experiences the ironic consequences that people like Haman and people like us should experience. So there's all sorts of things that we should experience the ironic result of because our desires are disordered. Jesus is somebody who didn't experience those, experienced the ironic consequences that we should. So, and Jesus then, unlike Haman, so he's like Haman, the fact that he dies, but unlike Haman, he's not dying for his own evil, his own pride. He's dying for hours on the cross. He absorbs the ironic punishment humanity has deserved. But then, ironically, when that should have been the low moment, Jesus, like Mordecai, rises to power from the grave, from.
David: The place where you're not supposed to rise.
Seth: Right, right.
David: Yeah. You don't go to power through death.
Seth: Yes.
David: That's the ironic thing that you're saying. Right?
Seth: Okay, that's exactly right. And he rises to power out of death. Just like Mordecai defeats all the Jews, Jesus defeats the enemies of darkness and sin. The empire of sin is ended, and Jesus sits at God's right hand in the heavenly places through an ironic salvation.
David: Yes.
Seth: Which. It's ironic.
David: That's amazing. So let me try to, like, repeat some of that back to you. So, like, what you're saying is God has built the world to work one way, that when we seek to find satisfaction or worship anything in this world, it turns ironically back on us to give us the exact opposite.
Seth: Yes.
David: Okay. And in doing that, we have deserved that punishment. But you're saying that on the cross, what we see through the Esther story is that. That Jesus has stepped in between our sinful pursuit of wrong desires and has received the punishment that was coming right back around on our own head.
Seth: Right. We should, when we are reading the Esther story, we should see ourselves as Haman. We're pursuing celebrity.
David: Yes.
Seth: We want our family to be healthy at all costs. But as we're doing that, we start getting the opposite result. Like, have you ever noticed that people like, who obsess over their kids, their kids end up like, hating their parents, and then they parent their kids in a way that their parents never would because they want their kids to like them in a way they never like their parents, but their kids don't like them. It's all ironic. It's all ironic. And so. Yes, exactly. You're supposed to see yourself as Haman. You should expect to be impaled on the pole of the frustrated. Your frustrated desires to be beautiful, to have a good family. But instead of that, Jesus does.
David: Yeah.
Seth: He inserts himself into the story.
David: Right. Which is what Esther does. Which we'll come back to here in a second. And then there's just this, like, and then there is this legal irony that's happening too, which, which just we have to point out because it's just so ironic, is like, is that the, the judge who had the right to actually give us justice for our wrongdoing, to punish us and, and destroy us, he had the right to do that. That ends up taking that justice himself like that.
Seth: Yeah, yeah. Like, there's like another level of irony too.
David: It's like, this might sound sacrilegious to say it like this, so. Yeah, I, I don't know if how it's going to sound, but it's like, I. In the same way that when we sin, the justice, the punishment comes around on our own head, God allowed himself, when he executes justice, for it to come around on his own head.
Seth: Yes.
David: Like, that's exactly what a beautiful willful gift from God to do that for us.
Seth: Yes.
David: Like, and he is the God who is in control of this whole situation. This doesn't happen accidentally to Yahweh. This is his plan. We look at Esther and it seems so well planned that God must have been its author.
Seth: Yes.
David: The same thing is true of the cross. That is the most beautiful story ever told. And it is told so well. And the justice is so poetic and the coincidences are too far flung that God must have ordained every step of it.
Seth: Yes.
David: Which is like what we're told again and again in the New Testament.
Seth: Yes.
David: That Jesus is the One that God foreordained to be our. Like to, like, die for us.
Seth: If you want to experience an ironic salvation from your ironic consequences, we have an ironic gospel for that.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Whoever wants to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their life for Jesus's sake will find it.
David: Wow. Yeah. That's very ironic.
Seth: Yes.
David: I, I, there's one thing I want to say and tease out about this irony thing before we, we turn to Esther.
Seth: Yeah, yeah.
David: And that is this whole idea of how does Jesus then, and, and Yahweh, how does God and his empire and kingdom replace our ironic desires? Like, doesn't he fix that problem for us, too? He doesn't just come in and take the punishment our ironic desires deserve. He also gives us new desires that are actually fulfilled. Because, like, when we pursue Jesus and we want to worship and love him, what falls back on our own, on our own heads, is grace and life and peace and satisfaction and contentment. It's like, that's not, I don't know.
Seth: If that's indigenous to Esther. Like, those, I think those are right concepts, right. Ironic reversals, but I don't know if those are. I don't know if I get a ton of internal motivational thought thinkings or desires from the Book of Esther.
David: Interesting. I totally do, but I totally do from this whole theme of exile and longing that seems to take place in this whole book that even when the book ends, the people are still in exile. They're still in waiting. We have these culturally compromised characters who we don't know if they were good or bad.
Seth: What were their intentions to the point you're making? The book ends with King Xerxes imposing a new tax on the whole landscape, the emperor still in charge of the empire. Like, not a ton has changed.
David: So I just feel like, and like, why is it as a reader, we're like, was Mordecai good or bad?
Seth: Right.
David: Like, did he make good decisions or bad decisions? Was he being pompous and, like, being like, I'm just being, like, loyal to my forefathers to not bow to Haman?
Seth: Yeah, yeah. And it makes you ask the question, like, well, when the Messiah comes, will this just happen again?
David: Yes.
Seth: Will it just be a reversal of power, but the powers will still be him?
David: Right. Or does he actually, like, fix this cultural tension and blending that we have to. Let me know how to parse out how to be in exile and how to be in Babylon but in his kingdom.
Seth: So there's a finality to Jesus Cross that it is Finished at the end of Esther, the empire still stands. The empire still stands. And really its power isn't abated. There's no diminishment of its power.
David: There was a salvation for the. For the people of God inside the kingdom, but the power of the kingdom still reigns. Still reigned.
Seth: And that you can look at the morally compromised nature of Esther and Mordecai's proof of that. Like, the power of the kingdom still reigns over people's hearts, presumably even the people of God. So what's unique at what happens with Jesus is he actually diminishes the power of the empire.
David: That's right.
Seth: Mordecai did not do that.
David: No.
Seth: The king is still making taxes on the people of God.
David: The death of Haman was not enough.
Seth: It wasn't.
David: Killing the enemy was not enough.
Seth: Yes.
David: Something else had to happen.
Seth: Yes.
David: And ironically, it was that the hero had to die.
Seth: Yes.
David: Still.
Seth: Yeah, Ironically, it was the hero that had to die. But in, like, I'm trying to think of a good way to make sure that we talk about, like, what, how Jesus defeats the empire at the cross, like, because he does, and he doesn't defeat the empire at the cross, he defeats the empire's power. The empire can no longer kill those who find their life in Jesus.
David: That's right. Because he has ironically defeated death by bringing life out of it.
Seth: The empire can no longer create more products of itself. So like, we talked about Esther as a product of the empire. She's, like, externally gorgeous, she's sexually Abel, she's throwing all these feasts and these parties. She's changed her name. Like, there's just internal complexity, this internal, like, bent towards the empire within Esther and Mordecai that is actually defeated for Christians. Christians have this intuitive understanding that they belong to a different kingdom than the empire of the world, and they live in light of that. So at the cross, Jesus defeats the power of the empire over death and the present, the power of that internal.
David: Empire that we talked about last. Last time.
Seth: Yes. Like, those two things he does that, he defeats them categorically. For those that trust in Jesus.
David: Yes.
Seth: For those who lose their life, so they may find it in him. But that is not the case for the entire world.
David: Right.
Seth: The presence of the empire is still felt.
David: The king's taxes still go out.
Seth: The king's taxes still go out. But there is a growing rebellion within the empire that we are promised will one day overthrow the presence of the empire. Because the king, the emperor, has already been dethroned.
David: Yeah. And in the Same way. It's like Jesus said, and the gates of hell will not overcome it. It's like him repeating this. This strange, ironic prophecy from Haman's wife that if these are the Jewish seed, there's no way you're going to be able to defeat them.
Seth: Yes.
David: And like, yeah, that's. That's where we are now. I just. I just think it. Even if it's not indigenous to the text, I just think it's important to point out the fact that just because people, I think, listen, like, okay, then what escape do I have from what I. What I worship? Just coming down on my own head.
Seth: Right.
David: And it's like, it's the fact that.
Seth: You won't die eternally.
David: Yeah.
Seth: You will be a part of God's kingdom. And.
David: Well, and that, like, Jesus actually satisfies our desires.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like that when we desire him, he satiates us. Like, desiring Jesus is never ironic. Whenever you desire Jesus and you want him to give you life, you get life.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Whenever you desire Jesus and you want him to bring you contentment, you get contentment. Whenever you desire Jesus and you want him to bring purpose to your life, you get purpose.
Seth: Yes.
David: Jesus never deals ironically with his choice children.
Seth: Even the desire for beauty.
David: Yes. I've made you this spotless bride.
Seth: Yes.
David: Yeah. Like, Jesus takes our ironic desires and makes them true.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, I wish I was more. Pretty great. I'll make you my pure, spotless bride forever. He untwists the irony in our lives. And so what we need to do is we need to find, like, what are all the things that I have trusted in in this world, and how have they become like snares for me that I've fallen in? You know, anvils I've stunned underneath. And how can I bring those to Jesus and let him untwist them for me?
Seth: Yeah. Do you find yourself in the same compulsive behaviors or in the same types of relationships, experience the same types of problems over and over and over again? There is redemption and reversal in Jesus Christ. There is. Yeah.
David: It's so good. Well, this talk ended up lasting way longer than I thought it would. So we're gonna. We're gonna have like a 4 to 8 A and a 4 to 8 B side. B side. So this was the. We'll call this like the Ha and Mordecai episode.
Seth: Yeah.
David: And then now let's. Let's start a new episode and let's do an Esther episode. So we'll leave it here for now and give us a chance to breathe and. And then we'll be back next week to talk about Esther. All right, we'll see you guys then.
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