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Should We Obey The Law Today?

About This Episode

What is the law? Should we observe the Sabbath? Why don't we celebrate Passover? Why do we still obey sexual laws, but not laws about farming? Seth and David explore these questions and more in an attempt to answer the question, "How do we apply the Old Testament law to Christians today?"

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Should We Obey the Law Today? Understanding How Old Testament Law Applies to Christians

Show Notes

David Bowden and Seth Stewart sit down for a candid and wide-ranging conversation about one of the most enduring and difficult questions in biblical theology: how does the Old Testament law apply to followers of Jesus today? Before diving into the specific laws found in the latter half of Leviticus, they pause to lay important groundwork, acknowledging that this is a question scholars continue to wrestle with and that they themselves are still processing. They point listeners toward resources from the Bible Project and Tim Mackie as additional study aids, while making clear that the goal of the episode is not to offer a definitive answer but to help listeners think through common assumptions and find a better path forward.

Ancient Law Is Not Modern Law

One of the most important shifts the episode calls for is rethinking what "law" even means. In our modern, Western context, law refers to written statutes ratified by a governing body, enforced in courts, and applied to the letter. Lawyers find loopholes, defendants are acquitted on technicalities, and the written code is the final word. But for the majority of human history, law did not function this way. Ancient law codes like the Code of Hammurabi were widely known and copied, yet thousands of court documents from the Babylonian Empire never cite that law code to justify a legal ruling. The same pattern appears in the Old Testament itself. When the prophet Jeremiah was accused of blasphemy and treason for announcing the temple's destruction, he did not quote the Torah in his defense. Instead, he appealed to the precedent of the prophet Micah, who said a similar thing and was not prosecuted.

This means the binding authority behind an ancient law code was not the written statute itself but the power and character of the authority behind it. For the people of Israel, that authority was Yahweh. What they were looking for in the law was not a list of loopholes and technicalities but a window into God's character and will. This distinction explains why the law could shift in its specifics without contradicting itself. During the Passover in Exodus, God commanded the lamb to be roasted and not boiled, likely because the urgency of their flight from Egypt demanded speed. By the time Deuteronomy was written, the people were in a different situation, and God permitted boiling. If you treat the law as a modern statutory code, that looks like a contradiction. If you understand it as an expression of God's unchanging character applied to a changing situation, it makes perfect sense. God's salvation was coming quickly in Egypt, and the meal needed to reflect that urgency. The character of God remained constant. The expression of that character shifted with the circumstances.

Why the Threefold Division Falls Short

The most common framework many Christians have been taught for applying the Old Testament law is the threefold division: moral laws, civil laws, and ceremonial laws. Under this model, ceremonial laws were fulfilled by Jesus in his death, burial, and resurrection. Civil laws applied only to Israel as a geopolitical nation and no longer bind the multinational church. What remains binding are the moral laws, things like the 10 Commandments. It sounds clean and simple, which is precisely why it is so popular. But the Bible itself never makes this distinction. Neither the Old Testament nor the New Testament separates the law into three categories or treats one category as expendable and another as permanent.

The problems with this framework become clear quickly. Many civil laws are grounded in moral principles. The command to build parapets on your roof is a civil regulation, but it flows directly from the moral command to love your neighbor. If you are obligated to obey the moral law, you are, by extension, obligated to care about the safety of others in your home. Which category does the Sabbath fall into? It is moral, woven into the creation account. It is ceremonial, central to Israel's worship rhythms. It is civil, regulating society's weekly schedule. It is impossible to assign it to just one category, which is precisely why Jesus made the Sabbath a centerpiece of his teaching about the law's true meaning. In the New Testament, Paul quotes what would be classified as a "civil" law about not muzzling an ox while it treads grain and applies it directly to paying church workers (1 Corinthians 9:9). He does not pause to reclassify it or explain why a civil law still applies. He simply treats the law as a unified whole that reveals something true about God's character.

The Deep Continuity Between Old and New Covenants

Rather than asking how different the old covenant is from the new, the episode argues that the key to understanding the law's ongoing relevance is seeing how deeply similar the two covenants are. Three parallels stand out. First, both covenants are rooted in grace. God called Abraham when he had done nothing to deserve it. He rescued Israel from Egypt before giving them a single law. He chose David, the smallest and weakest in his family. Grace always precedes obedience. God never set up a system where perfect law-keeping earned salvation. His presence was already among his people. The law was not a ladder to climb toward God but a guide for living with the God who had already come down.

Second, in both covenants, obedience is a response to salvation, not a means of earning it. The 10 Commandments begin with, "I am the Lord your God who brought you up out of the land of Egypt." The moral imperatives come after the gracious act. Paul's letters follow the same pattern. Ephesians, Colossians, and Philippians all spend their opening chapters establishing what God has done for his people in Jesus before turning to how those people should live. Third, both covenants carry blessings and curses. In Deuteronomy, obedience meant flourishing in the land, and disobedience meant exile. In the New Testament, the stakes are ratcheted up. Obedience leads to eternal reward, ruling and reigning with Jesus. Disobedience leads to eternal exile from God's presence. The Old Testament is not harsher than the New Testament. As D.A. Carson has observed, both God's love and his justice are intensified in the New Testament. Eternal life replaces life in a temporary land. Eternal separation replaces exile to Babylon. The cross itself is the ultimate display of both realities: God's love poured out in the death of his Son, and God's justice satisfied in that same death.

How Jesus Fulfilled the Law

Jesus' famous declaration in Matthew 5:17 that he came not to abolish the law but to fulfill it is the interpretive key to the entire question. The word "fulfill" is not a synonym for "keep" or "uphold." In Matthew's Gospel, it carries a richer meaning. Matthew 13:52 provides the interpretive lens: every scribe trained for the Kingdom of Heaven is like a master of a house who brings out of his treasure what is new and what is old. The old treasure is the wisdom and story of the Old Testament that has always been there. The new treasure is Jesus himself. When Jesus says he fulfills the law, he is revealing himself as the treasure hidden within it. He is both the person behind the law's character and the perfect embodiment of its intent. He lived as someone obeying the law flawlessly, not as a rigid rule-keeper but as the living expression of God's eternal character in a particular moment in time.

This is visible in how Jesus handled specific laws. With the Sabbath, he did not abolish it but revealed its true heart. The Pharisees had surrounded the Sabbath with hundreds of additional regulations through the Mishnah. Jesus cut through all of it by healing on the Sabbath and asking, "Isn't this person worth more than a donkey you would pull out of a pit?" The Sabbath was never meant to be a day of rigid non-activity. It was a day to enjoy God's good creation and to trust that he would provide. Jesus expanded the Sabbath from one day a week to an everyday posture of the heart. The author of Hebrews confirms this when he writes that a Sabbath rest remains "as long as it is called today." Paul in Colossians 2 says not to let anyone condemn you for how you observe or do not observe the Sabbath. The question is not whether to take a day off each week but whether you are daily trusting God to provide for your salvation, your needs, and your life. With the Passover, Jesus did not destroy the meal but revealed himself as its meaning. During the last Passover meal before his death, he took the bread and the cup and declared, "This meal is about me." What had been a once-a-year celebration of God's rescue from Egypt became a regular celebration, as often as you eat this meal, of an even greater rescue. Everything is ratcheted up, more frequent celebration of a more radical act of grace.

Why Adultery Still Applies and What It Reveals About the Law's Logic

The episode takes up the question of why some laws, like the prohibition of adultery, carry directly into the New Testament with full force. Leviticus 20:10 prescribes death for adultery. Jesus not only upholds this command but intensifies it, teaching that even looking at someone with lust constitutes adultery of the heart. Paul declares that adulterers will not inherit the Kingdom of God, a punishment far more severe than physical stoning. The reason this law endures so directly is that the eternal principle behind it closely mirrors the law itself. God is a covenant-keeping, marriage-loving God. Throughout Scripture, his relationship with his people is described as a marriage, and their unfaithfulness is described as adultery. God wrote his bride's names in the book of life before the foundations of the world and has been eternally faithful to them. Marriage still exists as an institution, and the call to exclusive faithfulness within it still reflects the character of God in a straightforward way. When you remain faithful to your spouse, you image the covenant love of God. When you give your whole self to another person in marriage, you reflect a God who withheld nothing of himself to purchase union with his people. This reframes morality entirely. The law is not a list of restrictions designed to limit joy. It is an invitation to be like the creator of the cosmos. Every law reveals something about who God is and offers human beings the extraordinary privilege of reflecting his character in their daily lives. As Paul writes repeatedly, the law is good, because it makes us like God. And because of Jesus living in his people through the Holy Spirit, there is now new power to actually become the kind of people these laws describe. The appeal of the Gospel is not merely that Jesus saves but that who Jesus can make you into is far greater than who you could make yourself into by following your own desires.

Transcript

Intro: [instrumental music] Welcome to The Spoken Gospel Podcast. This is our attempt to speak the gospel out of every corner of scripture. We believe every part of the Bible, Old Testament and New, is about Jesus, and this podcast is our experiment to publicly test that belief. Let's jump in. [instrumental music]

David: Well, welcome to The Spoken Gospel Podcast. We're glad you're here.

Seth: Welcome, welcome.

David: Yeah. Um, we are [laughs]-

Seth: Getting freaky

David: ... getting freaky. [laughs] Are we?

Seth: about unlawful sexual relations.

David: That's true. There's a lot of freaky going on-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... in this section. So, we, we've finished the Day of Atonement, and now we're about to step into this long section, really for the rest of Leviticus-

Seth: Mm-hmm

David: ... on law, just law code.

Seth: Laws. Well, kind of.

David: Yeah, kind of.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Um, but we thought it would be good to kinda stop and- [laughs]

Seth: 'Cause we've kinda done a whole thing where it's like priests and sacrifices have felt-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... like their own thing.

David: Yep.

Seth: Although there are a bunch of laws in there about how to do priests and sacrifices and be a priest and offer sacrifices. But when you move from that, you're transitioning on what does it mean to be a person in Israel?

David: [laughs] Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Seth: And it starts talking about law and capital punishment and-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... restitution and certain dollar amounts and-

David: Yeah.

Seth: So, wait a second.

David: Yeah, how you treat your neighbor, how you treat your farm, how you treat your animals.

Seth: How you distinguish Israel as a nation from the Canaanites-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... and the Amorites.

David: So, there's all this stuff going on, and we were like, "Okay, we did an introduction to Leviticus, uh, you know, before we started."

Seth: But it was really an introduction to sacrifice.

David: To sacrifice. Right, exactly.

Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

David: And I was like, "We should stop and do an introduction to law and kinda go..." Uh, I mean, it's, it's one of the hardest questions still today-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... that scholars have to deal with.

Seth: I have to write an ethics paper about it.

David: Oh, yeah.

Seth: It's like, "What?"

David: Is, is... And the question-

Seth: "Oh, this can help me write my ethics paper."

David: Yeah, there you go.

Seth: I'm so excited. [laughs]

David: But it's like the... And the question is like, how does the Old Testament law apply to Christians today?

Seth: Yeah.

David: Like-

Seth: That's exactly right

David: ... are we supposed to obey all of it? Like, I mean, you think of the... What was that guy, the year of living, living Biblically?

Seth: Oh, yeah. And he goes and, like, literally, like, wears, like...

David: Yeah, clothing made from one cloth.

Seth: One fabric and everything like that.

David: Tries to obey to the letter and the specificity-

Seth: All the 600

David: ... all the 611 laws.

Seth: Except the sacrificial ones, I guess.

David: Right. Yeah, whoops.

Seth: Whoops. [laughs]

David: Fail.

Seth: [laughs]

David: Le- year of living partially Biblically.

Seth: [laughs]

David: I'm gonna be really meticulous about obeying all these laws, except the ones I don't obey. [laughs] Whoops. Uh, anyway, and so it's a, it's a huge, it's a huge question. Um, we do not at all pretend to be experts on this.

Seth: Yeah. I think-

David: Uh, we, we have studied it, and we've thought deeply about it, but-

Seth: One thing I would-

David: ... it's a hard question.

Seth: It's a super hard question, and I would... We have been super helped by the Bible Project. So they have-

David: Oh, yeah

Seth: ... some amazing podcasts out right now about the law-

David: Yep

Seth: ... as well as some great videos on the law.

David: Yep.

Seth: So you should go watch them. Tim Mackie is a genius.

David: Yeah. [laughs]

Seth: [laughs] Who... He's like... I... The more I listen to people who are experts-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... the more I realize how true the introduction to our episode is, where it says like, "This is our experiment-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... to test [laughs]-

David: It's a, it's, uh, it's right

Seth: ... if Jesus is all of scripture." Like, this is like a conversation between friends.

David: Right.

Seth: And-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... 2 more people, like, "Let's see Jesus in scripture together."

David: Right.

Seth: You don't need to be an expert to do it.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And we're living proof of that. [laughs]

David: Yeah. And so, um... But I also don't wanna, like, cast this vision of us as people who are unstudied.

Seth: [laughs]

David: We actually... We read a lot of long books with big words in them, and we know some things, but-

Seth: I read the word.

David: You-

Seth: What did I read? What word did I read today?

David: You read a long word today?

Seth: Pentateuch.

David: Pentateuch.

David: [laughs]

Seth: [laughs]

David: And so, uh, anyway, I, yeah-

Seth: Did you remember?

David: I just think it's a good, it's a good little preface to put on this is, um, you know, I, I would say that no one has necessarily nailed this.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Um, it's-

Seth: Yeah, it's an ongoing dialogue-

David: It's an ongoing dialogue

Seth: ... about-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... the nature of ancient law-

David: Yep

Seth: ... versus the nature of modern law, versus how do Christians obey it?

David: Right.

Seth: To what extent do we obey it?

David: So, so we're not setting out here to provide the answer. Um, I don't really have one. I- I'm still thinking through this, so we're just gonna process.

Seth: Yes.

David: Um, and, uh, hopefully it's helpful. I think there's some really good things. I think mostly, I, I think probably a- as a listener, you'll probably have just a lot of, of things that you think are the answer cleared up.

Seth: Hmm.

David: Um, and then hopefully have, like, a better path forward. 'Cause I know for me, as I studied this, I was like, "Oh, I used to think that," and it's very wrong. [laughs] So-

Seth: Great.

David: Um, so-

Seth: And I think the one, like, the apologetic version of this question, the question-

David: Oh, yes

Seth: ... that we always get asked is like, "So what you're telling me is... Why... So why do you only obey certain laws-"

David: Uh-huh

Seth: ... "like the ones about homosexuality, but not the ones about different colored fabrics or different-"

David: Right

Seth: ... "types of fabric?"

David: Or different seeds and-

Seth: That means-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... either everything should be allowed or-

David: Or nothing

Seth: ... or nothing.

David: Yeah.

Seth: So, like, what's, what's happening here?

David: Yeah. A lot of... And, and like, yeah, I'm sure if you're a Christian, you've probably had someone come up to you and ask that question. It's just like, "What's up with all those weird laws in your Bible?" And it's like-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... "Let's have some answers." So hopefully that'll be helpful from an apologetic standpoint as well as .

Seth: This is the longest, like, um, caveat we have posted-

David: We have

Seth: ... at the beginning [laughs] of an episode.

David: We're at 4 and a half minutes in. [laughs] Um, but anyway, uh, okay, so let's talk about I think the biggest way that most people have probably been taught to apply and understand-

Seth: Hmm

David: ... the law from Old Testament to New Testament, which is the threefold division.

Seth: Right. Well, maybe circle back a little bit.

David: Okay, sure. I'll stop what I was doing.

Seth: What is a... Like, what is law?

David: Oh. Um-

Seth: Like-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... like, [laughs] is that a better place to start? Like-

David: I don't know

Seth: ... or should we reverse it? [laughs]

David: Should we un-reverse it? [laughs]

Seth: Should we un-reverse it?

David: I don't know. Um, okay, so, I mean, law, let's talk about it. So law, uh, we un- we have an understanding of what law is, right?

Seth: Right.

David: What we understand as law, uh, is these written codes that are ratified by a governing body th- and enforced by- ... that governing body.

Seth: Right.

David: Um, and-

Seth: So if you need to, if you need to know-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... what a law is, you can google it.

David: Yep.

Seth: And there'll be pages and pages of-

David: Yeah. You read the Bill of Rights this morning.

Seth: I read the Bill of Rights this morning.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Um, I've read, like, driver's license laws.

David: Yeah.

Seth: You know, like alcohol laws in particular states.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Like, how do you work ... You know, like, you can go somewhere-

David: Yep

Seth: ... and there is a written law about the thing that you're wondering about.

David: Yes. And, and, and you, you can know exactly what to do or not to do based on the letter of the law.

Seth: Right. And you can be, um, excused in a court of law based on a technicality-

David: That's right

Seth: ... within the law.

David: Loopholes.

Seth: So lawyers-

David: Yep

Seth: ... essentially exploit loopholes-

David: Yes

Seth: ... in the law.

David: Yep.

Seth: And then it's, that's a very pejorative way [laughs] to explain-

David: Oh, yeah. That's not all they do.

Seth: [laughs] Yeah. But, like, what you're doing is, uh, what does the letter of the law say?

David: Yep.

Seth: You didn't do precisely what the letter of the law said, therefore you are free to go.

David: Right. And so that is a very modern, Western way of viewing law.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Um, for the majority of history, laws were not things that were written down, kept, and then held up in court and acc- and, like, used to accuse people of.

Seth: Right.

David: That was not ... So, um, you know, you, you look at, like, the, the law of, of Hammurabi.

Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

David: You know, and, um-

Seth: It's, it's an ancient law code.

David: It's an ancient law code.

Seth: The Babylonians, right?

David: The Babylonians.

Seth: Yeah.

David: One of the most famous ones, copied tons and tons and tons of times.

Seth: Even, there'll be even laws within the Old Test- in the Torah-

David: Uh-huh, in the Torah

Seth: ... that are just copied from-

David: Well-

Seth: ... kind of-

David: ... I don't agree with that

Seth: ... close to copied.

David: It, it, the timelines don't really work out very well.

Seth: Oh. Interesting.

David: I, I think the other, I think it, I think it-

Seth: Oh, it's the other way around?

David: It could be, or they c- you know, they could be, like, contemporaries of one another.

Seth: Right, right, right.

David: I think copied would be the wrong way of viewing it.

Seth: Okay, okay.

David: I think they lived in the same area and in the same time and-

Seth: With the same concerns.

David: With the same concerns.

Seth: Right, yeah.

David: And so they're gonna talk about similar things. The same way as it's like you could go to another country, you know, that had no bearing on each other's laws and you would find similar things, protecting human life and protecting property.

Seth: Right.

David: Just because-

Seth: More like-

David: Yeah.

Seth: Yeah. That makes sense.

David: So anyway, um, but yeah, so this, this law of Ham- Ham- Hammurabi, um,

David: i- is like, it was widespread. Everyone knew about it. The Babylonian Empire. I mean, read Daniel. It was everywhere.

Seth: Yeah, yeah.

David: You know? And, and yet, um-

Seth: I am reading Daniel. [laughs]

David: Yeah, you are reading Daniel. Uh, and yet there are thousands of court cases that we found. Um, I, I mean, I didn't find them.

Seth: You found them?

David: We, we did not find them.

Seth: [laughs]

David: That people-

Seth: My fingernails are still dirty.

David: [laughs] That, that people smarter and more dedicated have found [laughs]. And, um, they're like court documents and, uh, marriage filings and all these things from this time period in the Babylonian Empire, and no one quotes the law code of Hammurabi in order to enforce a decision in a court of law.

Seth: So what you're saying is there, like today, there was a huge list of written laws somewhere.

David: Yep. Mm-hmm.

Seth: But when people went to court, they wouldn't appeal to the law.

David: Correct.

Seth: They would appeal to so- to a higher, something else.

David: Right.

Seth: To something else.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Which, and this is in the Old Testament too. So, like, in Jeremiah, the, the religious leaders come to Jeremiah and accuse him of blasphemy and treason for, for announcing the destruction of the temple. And instead of quoting the Torah or quoting, like, anything within the biblical narrative to kind of defend himself, he actually says, "No, Micah did the same thing and he wasn't prosecuted."

David: Hmm.

Seth: And so there's this thing within the Old Testament where it's not, you're not even quoting the law within the Old Testament to, um, uh, to, to-

David: To justify-

Seth: To justify what somebody said in the court of law

David: ... yeah, some kind of a law. Yeah. So anyway, there, there, there, we just have to kind of think about law a little differently. And, and-

Seth: So the point that there is because it's not necessarily the most binding thing in an ancient law code isn't the written statute-

David: Right

Seth: ... but it's the, the power-

David: The authority over it

Seth: ... behind the statute.

David: That's right. Yep.

Seth: Okay.

David: And so for us as, as Judeo-Christians who serve Yahweh, th- what we are trying to find in the law code is what is the character and will of Yahweh?

Seth: And we talked about that in the Exodus episode.

David: We did.

Seth: So, like, why are these-

David: Uh-huh

Seth: ... the 10 Commandments? Because they're expressions of the character of God.

David: Exactly right. And so there is this God who is over everything, who has a will for his people, a will for his world, um, and that is expressed in different, uh, political, social, cultural environments, um-

Seth: Differently

David: ... differently in this ... And, and so we get a snapshot of that here in Leviticus and in Exodus and Deuteronomy. We get to s- and, and, and what's interesting is as the people move from one locale to another, the law changes slightly.

Seth: That's right.

David: Right?

Seth: That's right. So for us as modern listeners, we're like, "Wait, the law changes? Does that mean God changes?" That's not, but that's not what you're saying.

David: No.

Seth: What you're saying is the character of God is such-

David: Yep

Seth: ... that it is being, it is, is constant, it's unchanging, it is holy, it is unique. But the way that God's character is expressed in different situations changes.

David: Yeah, based on the situation. And so, like, uh, you know, Tim Mackie over at the Bible Project that we talked about earlier, he, he mentions this in their, their podcast that's coming out around the same time as this one. And, um, he talks about how, uh, in the Passover, it was talked about, uh, it was commanded-

Seth: It was back in Exodus

David: ... back in Exodus, it said, um, to, to roast the, the lamb.

Seth: Right.

David: Um, do not boil it.

Seth: Yes.

David: And then in Deuteronomy, uh, later on, it says, uh, "Roast or boil the lamb." Like, go ahead and boil it. It's totally fine.

Seth: Right.

David: And it's like, wait, wait, wait, but you said, "Thou shalt not boil the lamb."

Seth: Boil it.

David: And now you're saying, "Thou shalt boil the lamb?" Is that a contradiction? And it's like, no, it's not. Um, and if you think that the law is like the laws we have today-

Seth: It's like statutory laws

David: ... statutory laws, you have a contradiction in the, in your Bible. So you've got to start, you've gotta see these things as different.

Seth: But if you understand that the law is a particular expression of God's covenant relationship with his people-

David: Right

Seth: ... in a particular time, it makes sense. So maybe there was a reason in Egypt why boiling would have been in a, an inappropriate way for, uh, for you to prepare the animal.

David: Yeah. And it was probably just the expedit- expeditious nature of their flight. They-

Seth: Oh, yeah.

David: Everything was eat standing, keep your s- keep your belt on, get ready to go.

Seth: Right.

David: And it's like, okay, but 1st I gotta get this water pot out, get the water boiling-

Seth: Right

David: ... chop up the pieces, put it in there. Stuff takes a while to boil. No, just throw it on the fire and eat it.

Seth: Right.

David: Like, that's probably the reason.

Seth: And it's par- because the character nature, the thing that we're, we're tying back to the character nature of God is, like, God's salvation is coming quickly.

David: Quickly. So get, get ready. Let's go.

Seth: Eat like that's true.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And we, uh, we even have another example of this-

David: Hmm

Seth: ... in, uh, Numbers chapter 9. So when we're about to get to the Passover laws, but you're not supposed to eat the Passover, uh, if you're ritually unclean.

David: Oh, right. Yep.

Seth: And, or you're not supposed to kind of sacrifice anything if you're ritually unclean. But the Passover law comes, uh, Passover time comes and a group of men comes to Moses in Numbers 9 and says, "We are ritually unclean because we've touched a dead body."

David: Oh, right.

Seth: "But we still wanna participate in this-"

David: In the Passover.

Seth: "... in the Passover." So Moses goes back and asks, "Lord, well, what should I do here?" And God- ... changes the law.

David: Yep.

Seth: He says, "Don't prevent anyone from eating the Passover because they've touched a dead body."

David: Right.

Seth: So is the law contradicted?

David: No.

Seth: No.

David: It's changing for the situation.

Seth: It's changing for the situation. Uh, there's another example I thought of as well, when D- so only the priests are supposed to eat the bread-

David: Oh, right

Seth: ... and the feast in the temple.

David: But then David-

Seth: But David-

David: Yep

Seth: ... when he's on the run from Saul, goes to the temple and the priests give him the bread to eat.

David: Yep.

Seth: Why? Because there's a character and nature of God at work, and so there, the preservation of life-

David: Yep

Seth: ... is more important in this particular instance-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... than the preservation of the sacred... I don't know how to-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... describe that.

David: Yeah, the sacred rituals of-

Seth: The sacred rituals of the temple.

David: Yeah, totally. And Jesus pulls on that in the New Testament and makes the same principle application.

Seth: Right.

David: Yeah. And, uh, and we've even seen one of these instances in a recent episode in Leviticus, right?

Seth: Yep.

David: Where it was like, uh, Ar- Aaron w- like, didn't, wouldn't, uh... What was it? It was a sin offering. It was supposed to be a sin offering, but he treated it like a burn offering.

Seth: Yes.

David: And Moses came, come and freaked out, and he's like-

Seth: Right

David: ... "Dude, no. What did you do?"

Seth: Yep, yep, yep, yep.

David: And, uh, he's like, "You're gonna die too."

Seth: He says, "I can't offer this in good, because I'm grieving."

David: "I'm grieving."

Seth: Right.

David: And so basically, he was like, he invented a law.

Seth: Yeah. [laughs]

David: You know? [laughs] Where, where-

Seth: Based on the character and nature of God in this particular moment, he said, "I shouldn't do this because I know who God is and I know myself in light of that. And if I'm God's covenant partner in this world, I cannot-

David: Right

Seth: ... do that." We have another one here. We just read it in the Day of Atonement when Aaron is supposed to offer a bull, but when that l- law was made in Exodus for the priest, it was a calf. And we talked about this a bre- very briefly.

David: Hmm.

Seth: But the idea was back in Exodus, you had to sacrifice a young bull, a calf, because you had just sinned by making a golden calf.

David: Oh, right.

Seth: And here, the situation a little bit further removed-

David: Right

Seth: ... and that youngness of the c- the bull is not necess- necessary.

David: Less important. The symbolism is less important.

Seth: Right.

David: Yep.

Seth: It's still there.

David: Yeah.

Seth: It's a bull, but again, we're not after a statutory law. I think the tradition's called common law-

David: Common law

Seth: ... which is what Tim Mackie pulls out. It's a common law tradition.

David: Oh, right. Yeah. It's just things that we all know about and like-

Seth: You're appealing to a higher power-

David: Right

Seth: ... or a, a mythology-

David: Yep

Seth: ... or something that informs the decisions of everyday life.

David: Right.

Seth: And that's what happens throughout the rest of Leviticus. You have common law applications based on the character and nature of God. You have applications of that law in cert- different arenas of life.

David: Right. And so I think what a lot of people might be thinking right now, um, is there, there, there's probably 2 camps of people. The, the, the one camp is probably... We'll take the confused camp out. There's one people who are like, "I have no idea what you're talking about."

Seth: What, what did you just say? Common law?

David: But, but there's, there's one group of people who are probably like, "Yeah, I totally know. I've been arguing with my other Christian friends about this, and I've told them so many times that the laws of the Bible are based on culture and don't really apply to us today 'cause we live in such a different culture."

Seth: Okay.

David: So like, you know, laws about homosexuality and, um, and other things like that just can't apply.

Seth: Adultery.

David: Adultery.

Seth: Right, yeah.

David: Like, just can't apply because they, they're a part of this other culture.

Seth: Cultural laws. Yeah.

David: Yeah. It's like, you know, laws against women.

Seth: Right.

David: You know, like that was, that was a misogynistic culture, so they can't, it just can't apply.

Seth: Yeah, or even the laws about fabric. Like n- these all d-

David: Yeah, totally.

Seth: None of them apply-

David: Right

Seth: ... because they're all cultural.

David: And so some of you are like, "Yeah, totally. I agree." But that's not what we're saying. That's a-

Seth: Well, there's a difference between... Hold on.

David: Oh, yeah.

Seth: Let me get to my other group.

David: Fine, fine. And then there's the other group of people who are probably, like, threatening to delete our podcast and never listen to us again because you're like, "This sounds wrong."

Seth: Right.

David: Because the law of God, not one jot or tittle will ever pass away from the law, as Jesus said, and he's not come to abolish the law but to fulfill the law. How dare you say that it can change and, or alter or morph at all?

Seth: Right.

David: Does, does God lie? Does he change his mind? No, he doesn't. And so it's like, what, what's the... Like, how do we-

Seth: What are we, what are we actually saying when we say all this?

David: And so that is, that is where the crux of this, this argument really, really comes.

Seth: Because you could take what we're saying and either think... You, you can think bad things about us-

David: Yep

Seth: ... based on [laughs] what we're saying here.

David: Yep.

Seth: But I think this is the appropriate way to understand it. And remember, Leviticus, well, the Torah is a narrative.

David: Yep.

Seth: So fundamentally, this is not a law book. This isn't the Code of Hammurabi.

David: Right.

Seth: And we've talked about this over and over again. Leviticus is responding to the fact that Moses can't enter into the temple. Aaron can't enter into the temple. And it's responding to the fact that God wants to live in the midst of his people. So how do we do that? We're s- and the book is structured to tell you that narrative, and woven throughout it are other narratives of people getting it wrong. Nadab and Abihu-

David: Yep

Seth: ... the goat demon offerers, which we'll talk about next week. Even, uh, the way it's structured should make you understand that this isn't a complete law book. It is a selection of laws-

David: Right

Seth: ... to give you a gl- glimpse at the God behind the laws.

David: Yep.

Seth: For example, we'll talk about this next week, but every single category of laws we'll take next week are done in groups of 7.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: So it's 7 laws, 7 laws, 7 laws, 7 laws, "I am holy." 7 laws, "I am holy."

David: [laughs]

Seth: 7 laws, "I am holy." Why just 7? 'Cause it's not communicating the full breadth of the law.

David: Right.

Seth: It's communicating a point.

David: Yes.

Seth: God is holy. Be like him.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And here are 7 examples of what that holiness looks like.

David: Yes, exactly right. And they're... Yeah. Anyway, so that's, that's really good. So we're gonna, we're gonna-

Seth: And-

David: Yeah, okay

Seth: ... I got one more thing.

David: Okay.

Seth: So you said, what you're saying is,

Seth: "I told you..." So our liberal Christian friend is saying-

David: Yep

Seth: ... "Like, see, right? Like, it's based on culture." That's not what we said.

David: No.

Seth: We said it's based on the character and nature of God-

David: Yes

Seth: ... which is actually profoundly different.

David: Yes.

Seth: And so the character and nature of God expressed itself through a law code in ancient Israel that had capital punishment attached to it and all these other things, and it was a geopolitical nation that was fairly racially homogenous and all these other things. And now we have a different situation where we are multinational, a multinational, multiracial church.

David: Yep.

Seth: And so what the question we're not asking is, how has culture changed-

David: Nope

Seth: ... so that we can change the laws to fit our culture?

David: Right. Yeah.

Seth: We're asking because God is the same-

David: Wow

Seth: ... but cultures change all the time, how do we apply that- ... permanent nature and character of God to a situation that's totally different and can't exist anymore. We don't have a temple.

David: Right.

Seth: We don't have a sacrificial system.

David: Yep.

Seth: So how do you obey the sacrificial and temple laws?

David: Yep.

Seth: You don't do that by offering new sacrifices. You do that by worshiping Jesus Christ, the once and sacrifice for all time. [laughs]

David: Right. [laughs]

Seth: Right? Like-

David: Yes, right.

Seth: So that's what we're at. That's the question we're asking.

David: Yes.

Seth: What is the permanent nature of God?

David: Yep.

Seth: How does that inform a different culture?

David: Yeah, because y- y- like, the argument for cultural changes is normally like, the only reason why these laws existed was because the culture was this way.

Seth: Right.

David: And, and so therefore, if the culture has changed, the law changes. That's not what we're saying. The a priori or the, the presupposition-

Seth: Ooh

David: ... the beg- what's the normal word for a priori? [laughs]

Seth: Beforehand? [laughs]

David: The before- [laughs] the beforehand thought, um, uh, i- is-

Seth: The presupposition.

David: The presupposition is culture.

Seth: Right.

David: And that's the cause of this law. We're saying no, the cause, the a priori of the law is God's character and His will for His people.

Seth: Yes.

David: And it is expressed in maybe different ways based on the, the, the struggles and context of that particular-

Seth: Right

David: ... people in that particular place.

Seth: Right.

David: And we know this, like, in, in mission work. Like, you don't just go and plant a church in Rwanda-

Seth: The same way you would-

David: ... that looks like in Edmond.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Like, that's, that's dumb.

Seth: That's where we live.

David: That's where we live. And it's like, that, that would be dumb. There's, there's this, there's this process called contextualization where you don't change what church is or, like, what the Gospel is or what the Bible says, but you contextualize it so it makes sense to that people.

Seth: Yes.

David: The truth is the same. Its expression is different.

Seth: Yes.

David: And that is exactly the same thing we're talking about. God is the same, but the laws are slightly different. [instrumental music] Okay, so we're gonna try to now ask, now that we've looked at what the law is, where it comes from, what it's based on, now let's say, how do we apply it to ourselves today?

Seth: We can talk about your 3 things again.

David: Right. We get to go to that thing.

Seth: [laughs]

David: We can un-reverse it.

Seth: Un-reverse.

David: And so I think that was a good, a good move. Um, okay, so a lot of times-

Seth: Thank you. It was kind of you

David: ... the most com- you're, you're very welcome, good sir.

Seth: You also made me coffee today. You've been very nice.

David: I did. Aw, well, I love you.

Seth: [laughs] Aw, I love you too, David. [laughs]

David: Uh, and so, aw, [laughs] sweet moment. Uh, okay, so there's, there's, m- when I grew, was growing up, the most normal way I heard how to a- apply the law to Christians today-

Seth: Right

David: ... was this way. It, there's 3 divisions in the law.

Seth: Okay.

David: There are moral laws, civil laws, and ceremonial laws. So, like, moral laws-

Seth: Would be like-

David: ... are the o- like the, like the-

Seth: ... don't have sex with your sister.

David: Or the 10 Commandments.

Seth: Oh, the 10 Commandments, yeah.

David: Like, right? Like, don't covet.

Seth: Yeah.

David: That's a, that's a moral claim.

Seth: Right, right, right, right.

David: Don't covet your neighbor's car. Moral law.

Seth: Got it.

David: Okay?

Seth: Got it.

David: There's civil laws, which kind of, like, are societal legislations.

Seth: Right.

David: So, like-

Seth: Make sure you build guardrails on your roof so nobody falls off.

David: Exactly.

Seth: Okay.

David: City code.

Seth: City code, yeah.

David: Yeah. Um, and then there's ceremonial laws, which are like the sacrifices and the priestly garments and everything that happens inside the tabernacle.

Seth: Okay. Yeah.

David: So-

Seth: I've heard this before

David: ... moral, civil, ceremonial. And what people say is, well, the ceremonial laws were taken care of by Jesus-

Seth: And his sacrifice

David: ... in his death, burial, and resurrection-

Seth: Right

David: ... so we don't need those. The civil laws were for a particular people at a particular time in a particular place.

Seth: And so s- uh, the church is the nation-

David: Yep

Seth: ... which the Lord has redeemed.

David: That's right.

Seth: Civil laws don't apply-

David: Right

Seth: ... because people live in nations all over the world.

David: Yep.

Seth: Okay.

David: And so the civil laws don't apply. What m- what still applies today, though, are the moral laws.

Seth: Okay, yeah.

David: And so that, that's, that's the, that's kind of the, the, the argument. Now, there's several problems with this. [laughs]

Seth: Well, the 1st problem is that the Bible never makes that distinction.

David: Exactly. The New Testament nor the Old Testament ever make a distinction between these 3 laws. In fact, quite the opposite is true. We have, um, all 3 of the... we have examples of all 3 of these arbitrary divisions pulled upon as authoritative-

Seth: Right

David: ... in the New Testament.

Seth: Oh, okay.

David: Yeah.

Seth: I was gonna say even more, even just more theoretically, like, it's really actually hard to separate a moral from a civil law-

David: Yes

Seth: ... or a moral from a ceremonial law at the time.

David: Exactly. So, so-

Seth: Yeah, yeah

David: ... that, that's one of the problems-

Seth: Right

David: ... is that a lot of the civil laws are based on the moral laws.

Seth: Yes.

David: Right? And so-

Seth: So, like, love your neighbor-

David: Uh-huh

Seth: ... means make sure that your house is safe with them.

David: Exactly.

Seth: So it's like, is that a moral law or a civil law?

David: Are you do- is it just because there needs to be, there needs to be, like, uh, what are they, what are they called? The parapets on your roof?

Seth: Parapets. This is a literal law. Go back to Exodus and you could read it. [laughs] It's like-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... that you, based on love your neighbor as yourself, you should build parapets around your house-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... to make sure nobody falls off it accidentally.

David: Right.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And so are you just doing that because God loves parapets? [laughs] Right?

Seth: Right, right, right.

David: Or are you doing it because that's a way to love your neighbor?

Seth: Right.

David: Well, it's to love your neighbor. And so if I'm supposed to obey the moral laws, I have to obey that civil law.

Seth: Yes.

David: And so it d- it's too hard to separate. And then, um, these laws or these categories are too hard to draw, like, lines between.

Seth: Right.

David: So is the Sabbath moral, civil, or ceremonial?

Seth: It's impossible to tell.

David: It's impossible to tell.

Seth: It's possible, yeah.

David: Which is why Jesus made it a centerpiece of his fulfillment language-

Seth: Right

David: ... 'cause it just, you can't, [laughs] like, you can't pi- it, it touches everything. Like-

Seth: Right

David: ... it touches absolutely everything.

Seth: Or have you been thinking of a ceremonial moral, like, split or, like-

David: Uh-huh

Seth: ... convergence, like with Nadab and Abihu? They broke a ceremonial law-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... by offering a different type of fire or a different type of offering-

David: Right

Seth: ... than what was commanded. But it was actually a moral failure on their part, and so they were punished for it.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: Or even, like, yeah. So, like, or, um, yeah.

David: Yeah. It's good. And so, um, yeah, so the, the, the New Testament even uses a lot of these, um, different, different laws.

Seth: Sure.

David: And so, like, uh, you know, Jesus says, uh, "Love the Lord your God with all your heart," you know-

Seth: Soul, mind, and strength

David: ... "and love your neighbor as yourself." That is dir- like, like, direct quotes from Leviticus 17 to 22. Like this-

Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah

David: ... this passage here. Um, the 10 Commandments are quoted often in the New Testament.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Uh, Peter even quotes a passage, uh, or a, a verse from this passage that we're gonna look at next week.

Seth: Yeah.

David: "Be holy as I am holy," in 1 Peter 1:16. Um, and, and this, this shouldn't surprise us. Like-

Seth: So the point you're making here is, like, the idea that you can separate the civil, ceremonial, moral laws from each other-

David: One doesn't make sense because they overlap in many cases in the Old Testament.

Seth: Right.

David: And in the New Testament, uh, they never treat it as separate categories.

Seth: No.

David: They just say the law as a whole-

Seth: Yep

David: ... is-

Seth: Is good

David: ... good. And, and like, I mean-

Seth: And Paul will say that multiple times.

David: Yes.

Seth: The law is good.

David: And think about, like, 1 Corinthians 9:9 where Paul says, "Don't muzzle an ox whenever it's treading out the grain." And he doesn't say-

Seth: Right

David: ... "Now, that doesn't apply anymore, but here's the principle."

Seth: Right.

David: He just says it and it's, uh, it's true, it's, it's law.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And then he goes, "That means, you know, whenever a preacher is at your church and working, uh, he deserves-"

Seth: You should pay him.

David: "You should pay him. You should feed him while he's working. Don't muzzle an ox whenever it's treading the grain."

Seth: Again, eternal, unchanging God-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... responding to a particular cultural moment.

David: Right. And so basically what we're saying is the three-fold division way is, is, is just an unhelpful way of-

Seth: Right

David: ... of trying to answer this question.

Seth: It's not the way the Bible thinks about itself.

David: Right.

Seth: It's a way, it's an easy way.

David: It's an easy way.

Seth: It feels really easy-

David: Right

Seth: ... to say, "Well, th- those are ceremonial and those are civil laws and those don't apply anymore and we just start fresh with Jesus."

David: Right.

Seth: It's really easy and it's kinda compelling in some, because it's so easy.

David: Yeah.

Seth: But I, it's just not the way the Bible thinks about itself ever.

David: That's right. And so we're gonna have to have a better answer to the question of how do we apply the Old Testament law to ourselves today other than, "Well, we just obey-

Seth: Right

David: ... the moral ones."

Seth: Right.

David: 'Cause that's just not gonna be the answer.

Seth: And besides, if you say that to somebody, one, I think you'd end up being intellectually dishonest 'cause they're gonna push back on you. "Well, well, what about the sabbath? Those are, that's a conflation of all 3." And you'll be like, "You don't have a category for that."

David: Yeah.

Seth: So, like-

David: Exactly.

Seth: Yeah, you need a better answer than that.

David: Yeah. Um, and so le- let's also look ... So instead of trying to see how they're different and how maybe we've departed from them and, and everything like that, which is kind of what most of these conversations turn into, "Well, well, things are just different now and the New Testament is under the new covenant and that's the old covenant." It's like, let's actually look at how similar these 2 covenants are. Like-

Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

David: And so, so 1st off, the old covenants, you know, 'cause ... Well, actually, let me pause and reverse.

Seth: Pause, reverse, reverse, reverse.

David: Right? Because the law is part of the covenant. That's really important to talk about.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Right? That the, this law was given to a specific people that God had made promises to and entered into an agreement with.

Seth: Yeah. God saves Israel out of Egypt.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: He meets them on Mount Sinai and he says, "I'm going ... You are my people. I am your God. Will you do what I say?" And they, and they say, "We will do all that you command."

David: That's right.

Seth: They've entered into this re- covenant relationship. Th- they are God's covenant partners in a particular pe- place and time for the rest of-

David: Right

Seth: ... the ti- yeah.

David: Yeah. And so the Old Testament covenants, I'm just gonna look at similarities between-

Seth: Okay

David: ... the Old Testament and New Testament moral commands, which what we might call laws.

Seth: Okay.

David: Okay? So Old Testament covenants, uh, uh, in which there are laws, are based on grace. Right?

Seth: Yep.

David: So God called Abraham whenever he had done nothing to deserve it. He rescued Israel out of the land of Egypt-

Seth: Before the, before the law was given

David: ... before the law, before the law was given, and he chose David, the smallest and weakest of his family. Like-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... it's all grace. A- and so, uh, and it, it's very similar.

Seth: Let's pause right there.

David: Yep. It's all grace.

Seth: Let's ... Just, I think a lot of people don't understand that that is in the Old Testament.

David: [laughs] Right.

Seth: That, like, grace precedes obedience.

David: Yes.

Seth: Like, God's salvation comes before our adherence to his law.

David: Right.

Seth: In response to his salvation, we obey.

David: Right.

Seth: Such, it's-

David: God never said-

Seth: When I 1st heard that-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... it blew my mind. It still blows my mind.

David: Yeah. God never set up a system in the law where, "If you obey the law perfectly, then I will save you."

Seth: "Only once you offer all the sacrifices will my presence fall."

David: Right.

Seth: "My presence is already here."

David: "Now how can we live together?"

Seth: "How can we live together?"

David: Yeah.

Seth: "How can you come closer to me?" is-

David: Yep

Seth: ... the book of Leviticus.

David: Yeah. Yeah. "How can you be made in my image? How can you be holy as I am holy?"

Seth: Right. "How can you be like me?"

David: Yeah. And so it's amazing.

Seth: Yeah.

David: It's not what we think it is. The laws are not here to, um, give us a way to earn our salvation. They're here to make us like God and to let us live in communion with him.

Seth: Yeah.

David: So anyway, they're, it's all grace. The New Testament, obviously, in Jesus, that new covenant is all grace as well. Right? Jesus called us, rescued us, chose us, just like he did Abraham, Moses, and David. And so-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... it's all, it's all grace. Uh-

Seth: And with that-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... we, we t- so it's all grace. It's all about our relationship with him, but it's also about our relationship with the world. So a covenant assumes that we are doing something with God.

David: Yep.

Seth: Right? So, like, a covenant in the ancient times would be 2 nations coming together to rule together-

David: Right

Seth: ... over a particular, like-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... plot of land. So when we're in a covenant with God, we are ruling with him. That's why there are all these civil codes.

David: That's right.

Seth: You have a city and a civilization that is supposed to reflect God's glory in the things as small as architecture.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Right.

David: And it goes back to, it goes back to the garden. It wasn't just, "Hey, just live with me and let's chill out together."

Seth: "Let's build something together."

David: "Let's build something. Let's be fruitful and multiply, tend the garden. Don't eat that tree."

Seth: Right.

David: Great.

Seth: Same thing applies for our state, not just in evangelism, but we're supposed to build-

David: That's right

Seth: ... ci- like, civilization, businesses, and buildings-

David: Yep

Seth: ... in a just, moral way.

David: Yes.

Seth: Yeah. Okay. So, uh, the second one we actually already talked, talked about. The 2nd, uh, like, agreement between old and new covenant is that law is a response to salvation.

David: Yep.

Seth: Right? "I am the Lord your God who brought you up out of the land of Egypt, therefore 10 Commandments." Right? Like, grace always comes 1st. And it's, it's the very same thing. The moral imperatives, uh, of the New Testament are always based on the gracious indicatives of the gospel.

David: Right. So if you read the Book of Ephesians or Colossians or Philippians, the 1st couple chapters are normally all about, "Here's what God has done for us in Jesus."

Seth: And because God has dealt of this person, Jesus, let's also talk about-

David: What we do

Seth: ... what we do.

David: Yeah.

Seth: What does that mean for churches that lo- that are ethnically divided? What does that mean for marriage relationships? What does that mean for family relationships? What does that mean for, um, your personal-

David: Right

Seth: ... sexual holiness? Like-

David: So, like, the New Testament has moral imperatives.

Seth: Right.

David: It has law.

Seth: Yeah.

David: But they're always as a response to salvation.

Seth: Just like the Old Testament.

David: Just like the Old Testament. And then thirdly, there are blessings and curses in both.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: They're not called necessarily curses, you know-

Seth: Right

David: ... in the New Testament, but they are all over the place. You know, there's blessings and curses in the Old Testament. If you-

Seth: So Deuteronomy-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... uh, 30-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... 2? 26.

David: Yeah, and on, yeah. It's like, yeah, it-

Seth: It's like, I said before-

David: ... whole section

Seth: ... life and death-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... blessing and curses. Now-

David: Now choose life

Seth: ... choose life. Right.

David: Yeah. And so if they obey the law, they get to stay in the land and enjoy, uh, abundance and all this stuff. If they disobey the law, they'll be cursed and exiled from the land.

Seth: Right.

David: In the New Testament, uh, if we obey, we're promised reward, which is crazy. Uh-

Seth: Not just being with-

David: With the Lord

Seth: ... the Lord, like ruling and reigning with Him.

David: Even more.

Seth: But crowns and-

David: Yeah. Like, what? Crazy.

Seth: Authority and power.

David: Yeah. It's insane. And so there's a blessing, right?

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: But then there's also curses. Like, if you disobey, even what you have will be taken from you. Uh, you'll survive, but only as one escaping the flames.

Seth: You'll be exiled-

David: You'll be-

Seth: ... from God's presence-

David: Forever

Seth: ... forever.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Right.

David: Where there's weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Seth: Right.

David: Like, there's blessings and curses based on, um, so the law.

Seth: So something, so something to know there then is, like, sometimes we have this understanding of God's law as being really harsh and vindictive or cruel in the Old Testament.

David: Oh, right.

Seth: But the Go- but God's love and mercy triumph more in the Old Testament. One of the thing, most helpful things I heard was from D.A. Carson. He says, "Actually, that's false. Both God's love and his justice are ramped up in the New Testament."

David: Right.

Seth: So both the blessing and the curses have more-

David: Are more intense

Seth: ... have more, are more intense.

David: Yeah.

Seth: You have eternal life-

David: Right

Seth: ... not just life in a land until you die-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... but you also experience eternal exile-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... eternal separation. So not just God's love is elevated be- and we see that beautifully in Jesus-

David: Right

Seth: ... but we also see God's justice and his exile and the curse elevated, because why? Look at Jesus. God Himself died. So, like, that's, that's... Both are elevated.

David: Yeah. I mean, you look at, let's look at, like, a command that's in both, like adultery, you know?

Seth: Yeah.

David: And stuff like that. It's like if you, if you commit adultery with, with this other woman while you're married, there's like-

Seth: In Israel-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... after the Book of Leviticus was written-

David: R- right

Seth: ... you die.

David: You die. There's stoning.

Seth: There's stoning.

David: Right? Uh, but then in the New Testament-

Seth: Paul never says that you're stoned-

David: Right

Seth: ... but he does say something far more brutal. "Adulterers do not inherit the kingdom of God."

David: Yep.

Seth: It's eternal separation.

David: It's crazy. And so it's like we should not have this false division in our head of Old Testament laws, harsh, strict, mean, you know, uh, you know, antiquated, and then New Testament laws are fluffy and white clouds and everything's fine. It's like everything is ratcheted up. Now, yes, the blessings are way better.

Seth: Yes.

David: But the curses are even more severe.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And so I think that that is a helpful thing for us to think through.

Seth: It's like the, the way that God interacts with his... God is eternal and unchanging, and the way that he interacts with humans is fundamentally the same.

David: Yep.

Seth: Do good, just like the, the [laughs], just like the promise to Cain. Obey or you'll be exiled from the garden.

David: Right.

Seth: Do good and you'll be accepted, and if not, you'll bo- you'll be cast out into the wilderness.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Like, it's the same thing.

David: And so, yeah. And so what we're saying here is whereas the threefold division sought to show how different the New Testament is from the Old Testament-

Seth: Right

David: ... and say, like, these two-thirds of the laws don't apply anymore, we only need one-third, uh, we're saying the exact opposite. We're saying, actually, the idea between, uh, the, the key to answering the question, how do we apply the Old Testament laws to today, is not in saying how different the Old Testament is from the New Testament, but showing how similar they are.

Seth: And when we say similar, not just in the law for law, because-

David: Right

Seth: ... in one, it's like, it's not that similar.

David: Nope.

Seth: It's in the character and nature of God.

David: Right.

Seth: God is responding and treating humans in a covenant relationship. He is holy and unique, and he demands that his people be holy and unique in the same way. [instrumental music]

David: Okay, so we need to answer now. [laughs] We've said-

Seth: [laughs]

David: ... we've said it's not a threefold division where everything's different. It's more like every- everything's very similar, that, that the old and new covenants are-

Seth: Right

David: ... based on grace, and we respond in obedience to the eternal laws of God, um, because of his salvation and attached-

Seth: Eternal character of God

David: ... eternal character of God.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And, uh, because of that, there's blessings and curses that get-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... ratcheted up in the New Testament.

Seth: Yeah.

David: So now, in order to say, in order to answer the question, how do we apply the Old Testament law to us today, I think the best place to look is let's see how Jesus treated the law.

Seth: Right.

David: Right?

Seth: And his most famous statement is-

David: Yes

Seth: ... "I have not come to abolish the law."

David: Abolish the law.

Seth: So he's kind of inter- reinterpreting the Old Testament and saying, "Actually, it's not about just not sleeping with somebody. It's about-"

David: Not looking lustfully at them.

Seth: "... not looking lustfully at them." So after this long extended thing we call the Sermon on the Mount-

David: It's actually bef- it's actually the beginning.

Seth: It's the beginning.

David: It's the beginning. It's the preamble to the Sermon on the Mount.

Seth: It's the preamble. Okay, yeah, yeah.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: I haven't read the-

David: So, yeah

Seth: ... I never read the Sermon on the [laughs] Mount thoroughly.

David: Yeah. There's like, there's like the, there's the Beatitudes-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... and then there's a small section, uh, and then there's this famous statement. And it's like the preamble to, uh, how he's about to treat this new law.

Seth: And the reason he says this is because some Pharisees are pushing up against him-

David: That's right

Seth: ... and they're asking the same thing we're all asking. "Aren't you being inconsistent?"

David: Right.

Seth: "Aren't you not treating the Old Testament law the way that you're supposed to?" And Jesus says, "No. I have not come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it."

David: Fulfill it. Right.

Seth: And that word, that, that's such a strange-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... word. Like, that doesn't... Like, abolish and fulfill don't feel like opposites to each other.

David: Like antonyms.

Seth: Yeah, yeah.

David: Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Seth: So it takes a little bit for us to figure out.

David: You would think, like, abolish and keep. Right. Or uphold-

Seth: I might-

David: ... maybe. Yeah. Reinstate.

Seth: Yes.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And maybe that's the closer one, reinstate.

David: Yeah.

Seth: "I've not come to abolish the law, but to reinstate it." Or I've heard, like, correctly interpret or-

David: Right

Seth: ... interpret for a new time.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Like, you know?

David: Right.

Seth: Like, and that's, so that's what, kind of what we've been getting at this whole podcast.

David: Yeah, but he's saying fulfill.

Seth: What do you say fulfill?

David: Which, which is, is a m- is a Matthew way of saying bring out the full truth, right? So, like, for Matthew, uh, in the center, he has, he has a interpretive rubric in the center of his book and it is this very tiny, short story, uh, that has become one of Seth and I's favorite.

Seth: And Seth's, uh, yeah.

David: And it's found in Matthew 13:52, and, uh, and Jesus says, "Every scribed, scribe [laughs] who has-"

Seth: Scribe?

David: Scribe. "Every scribe who has been trained for the Kingdom of Heaven is like a master of a house who brings out of his treasure what is new and what is old."

Seth: Yeah, when I 1st heard that, I was like, "What does that mean?" And I, I've skipped over it for years.

David: Years, same. Yep, years.

Seth: But why is it so amazing?

David: Well, because he, what he's saying is he's like, so scribes are the people who interpret and know the Old Testament.

Seth: Right.

David: And, um, and he's saying, so a scribe is someone who goes to their treasure, which is the Old Testament-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... and out of it, they're able to pull out all the old treasure that's always been there, that you've always seen. It's always been there.

Seth: The wisdom of God, the character of God-

David: The wisdom of God-

Seth: ... the nature of God

David: ... the story of, of salvation for Israel. Pull out that old treasure. It's really good. But the w- the scribe trained for the Kingdom of Heaven can now pull out new treasure as well, which is why all throughout Matthew, you see this word fulfill, fulfill, fulfill, fulfill. And what he's saying is like, this was to fulfill what so-and-so said, and this was to fulfill what so-and-so said. And, and most of the time, the things that he's pointing to in the Old Testament ha- were not waiting for fulfillment. No one was waiting.

Seth: Like, uh, give an example.

David: Like, well, like, so a lot of people would be like, "The, the virgin shall be with child."

Seth: Right.

David: Right?

Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

David: And it's like, you know, Isaiah 7, and it's like, and then there's Jesus and he's the fulfillment of that prophecy, right?

Seth: Yeah. Wait, what? I thought that wa- I, I thought that happened back in Isaiah.

David: Yeah. And it's like-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... yeah, it was about a king and-

Seth: Right

David: ... everything like that. But, like, that one, promise fulfillment. We kinda get that.

Seth: Right. Yeah.

David: But a lot of the ones that Isaiah points to are just, like-

Seth: Stop

David: ... kind of one-off liners.

Seth: Yeah, like, uh, he will come out of Egypt.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Yeah, yeah.

David: Yeah. Or, like, he will be called a Nazarene isn't even in the Old Testament.

Seth: [laughs]

David: And yet it says this was, he, he fulf- this was to fulfill, he shall be called a Nazarene. Wait, what? So he's talking about an inference made from a couple different places that then people just kinda had in their heads-

Seth: Back then

David: ... he will be called. And so it's like-

Seth: So what's the new treasure?

David: So the n- yeah, the new treasure is Jesus.

Seth: Jesus.

David: Yes, the new treasure is Jesus. And so when Jesus says, "I've come to fulfill the law," what he's saying is, "I'm coming to show you the new treasure. I'm coming to show you that I am the treasure that was in the Old Testament. I'm tr- I'm here to show you that-"

Seth: I am the treasure in the law.

David: In the law. And so, like, when we come and, and look at the law, we're like, oh, there is a new treasure inside of it and it's Jesus. And it's not only hi- hi- his, his person and his death, burial, and resurrection, it's also how he lived. Like-

Seth: Right

David: ... Jesus lived as the perfect embodiment of someone obeying the law perfectly. Like, that's, that's what he lived like.

Seth: Right.

David: And so we can look to him and it's like, how did he fulfill the law?

Seth: He lived-

David: So see how he lived.

Seth: Well, right, 'cause of what, what do we keep saying? Like, the law is a expression of God's infinite-

David: Yes

Seth: ... perfect character in a particular moment-

David: Right

Seth: ... in time.

David: Yeah.

Seth: So Jesus comes in a particular moment in time perfectly expressing the character-

David: 'Cause he is God

Seth: ... and nature of God [laughs] in that particular moment, which is why it was so category-gory blow- blowing-

David: Right, yeah

Seth: ... for everybody, for the religious leaders, for the prostitutes and the tax collectors-

David: Yep

Seth: ... for the pilot. It's like, you embody something that feels transcendent. And he's like, "That's exactly right."

David: [laughs]

Seth: "There's an eternal, unchanging law and I am perfectly embodying it."

David: Yeah, I am it.

Seth: "I am fulfilling it."

David: I am it.

Seth: "I am the treasure-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... buried in the law."

David: Yes.

Seth: "I'm the thing behind the law." [laughs]

David: Right, exactly. And so, um, Jesus came to fulfill it, so let's see kind of some of the things he did with specific laws to-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... maybe see if that sets a rubric for us to be able to do it ourselves.

Seth: Okay.

David: Okay? So, uh, 1st, uh, let's look at the Sabbath, right?

Seth: Great.

David: He always interacts with the Sabbath. And now, now Jews-

Seth: You already mentioned because it's like, it's kind of like, one, it kinda messes with everybody's categories.

David: Yep.

Seth: It's the defining feature of being a Jew.

David: Yep.

Seth: It is embedded in creation.

David: Yep.

Seth: It is something that organizes the entire week of every single Jew.

David: [laughs]

Seth: So even if you were, like, not v- very theologically nuanced, you'd be like, "My whole week is built around-"

David: The Sabbath.

Seth: "... the Sabbath." Yeah. [laughs]

David: Yeah, totally. Uh, and so, but Jesus does not practice the Sabbath like all the Jews practice the Sabbath. Um, you know, the Mishnah, um, it talks about how to practice the Sabbath, uh, which is like the-

Seth: Which the Mishnah is like all the collected writings of the rabbis-

David: Uh-huh

Seth: ... reflecting on the law. And they're like, "If we really wanna keep the law in these changing times, we should do this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, and this as well."

David: Right. And Jesus is like, "No, no, no, no. You're missing the whole heart of the Sabbath."

Seth: Right.

David: Because, like, he would-

Seth: You've misinterpreted the character of God.

David: That's right, 'cause he would go and heal someone on the Sabbath.

Seth: Right.

David: And people would freak out and be like, "You're not allowed to do any work on the Sabbath." And he's like, "Um, if you have, like, an animal that falls into a pit on the Sabbath and it's languishing down there with a broken leg-"

Seth: "You're allowed to pull it out."

David: "... you can, you'll pull it out, won't you?"

Seth: "Doesn't your Mishnah teach that you should pull it out?"

David: Yeah.

Seth: [laughs]

David: And then, and then he's like, "Isn't this guy worth more than a donkey?" Like, so-

Seth: Right

David: ... he's saying it's, it's, we should do good on the Sabbath.

Seth: Yeah.

David: The Sabbath is not a day to just, like, strictly observe a law and not do any work and deprive ourselves of everything and not interact with the world. He's like, "No, if anything, if you're not gonna work that day, the Sabbath is, is a day to do good for people."

Seth: Right. And, or even, like, to enjoy the world.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And how much, I mean, even, like, if you wanna talk about it, like, a little hedonistically, it is a joy to help others.

David: Right.

Seth: So why wouldn't you want to help somebody in need-

David: Yes

Seth: ... on the Sabbath?

David: And, like, you're supposed to, like, cook all your food b- on the day before-

Seth: Right

David: ... on the Sabbath. It's like, great, so I don't have to cook, I just get to eat all day? Awesome.

Seth: Right. [laughs]

David: It's, it's very hedonistic there.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And so, um, so that's interesting. So, like, uh, Jesus showed the true nature of the Sabbath law. There was a principle behind it. He was that principle. And then, like-

Seth: And God saw all that he made and he called it good.

David: And he called it good.

Seth: And he rested.

David: Yeah. So enjoy the world.

Seth: Enjoy the week.

David: Yeah.

Seth: You had a great week.

David: You had a great week. Enjoy it.

Seth: Enjoy it.

David: Yeah. That's really good. Okay. And then look, so let's look at then the Passover.

Seth: So pause-

David: Oh, sorry

Seth: ... pause right there.

David: Yep.

Seth: So based on that-

David: Oh, sure. What, what-

Seth: ... we're allowed to say-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... we no longer have to rest on a Sabbath?

David: Oh, no. We get to enter into true rest, right?

Seth: Okay.

David: Yeah.

Seth: So, so let's talk about this. Like, so now-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... like, so we just explained it. Like, so now what, like how do we interpret the Old Testament law that said, "You must keep the Sabbath," and there were strict penalties-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... if you did not keep the Sabbath?

David: Right.

Seth: So like...

David: Yeah. Uh, so, and, and this is a really debated one because there's many Christians who still observe the Sabbath today.

Seth: Yep. So-

David: Once a week, um, yeah, 7th Day Advents, I think-

Seth: Yeah. Yeah

David: ... Adventists, they, they do that. Um, and, and I, but I think that the majority of, of the New Testament, especially Hebrews, would lead us to believe that Christians have Sabbath rest today as long as it is called today, is, is what the, is what-

Seth: Right, right

David: ... the Hebrew author says, that the Sabbath rest remains today. And so the rest that we enter into is daily. Every single day we have rest, uh, from our work because Jesus has accomplished everything for us. We have the right to enjoy this world because he called it good. You know-

Seth: Right

David: ... don't call anything I've made unclean.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Call it good.

Seth: Call it good.

David: And like, and, and yeah, we work, but it's good work. It's pre-fall work. You know, we work the garden with Jesus and we're his co-laborers. So we don't just sit around on our sofas all day and-

Seth: Right

David: ... do the Sabbath. So we have true rest.

Seth: So what you're saying, so I, I know there's another phrase out there called already and not yet.

David: Right.

Seth: So which means it's like we've already, we're already experiencing some of the blessings of what it might look like to live in God's permanent kingdom when he returns, but we have not yet experienced the fullness of it. So what you just said was Sabbath in the Old Testament, the way that you really honored the intent of the, the God who made good things was to work really hard on the ground that was difficult. On the 6th day, you rested and saw what was good about it. But today, our nature, our relationship to work is fundamentally changed because of Jesus?

David: Yeah.

Seth: Is that what you're saying?

David: I, I think so. I think so. And-

Seth: Like different from an Old Testament person-

David: Right

Seth: ... on the, on the back side of Jesus.

David: Yeah, I mean, kind of. [laughs]

Seth: [laughs] On the back side of Jesus.

David: I think also there, there's something to note here, like, um, you know, even Paul in Colossians talks about don't let anybody look down on you for not celebrating the Sabbath.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Like he says that-

Seth: Certain days, certain festivals-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... certain weeks.

David: And so it's like we know in Colossians 2 that we should not let anyone condemn us, I think is actually the word-

Seth: Right

David: ... for not practicing the Sabbath.

Seth: Yes.

David: And so we know that there was a strand of Christian that didn't do it. But we're also told in, towards the end of Romans not to look down on people who do practice the Sabbath.

Seth: Right.

David: So the a- the question we're answering here is, is not should or shouldn't a Christian take a day a week and have Sabbath rest?

Seth: It's what is the eternal nature of God behind the Sabbath laws?

David: Yep.

Seth: And what you're saying is the eternal nature of God behind the Sabbath laws is one that enjoys the creation-

David: Yep

Seth: ... enjoys the work, and also has periods of rest.

David: Yeah. And that, and, and ultimately even more than that, the Sabbath was all about trusting that God would provide. That's what it was all about.

Seth: Right.

David: Was like, don't do any work. Don't make any food. Don't go and collect the, the food out on the ground whenever you were-

Seth: Right, right, right

David: ... they were traveling in the wilderness. It's just God will provide. And so like do you have a daily rhythm in your life where you are trusting God to provide for your salvation, for the clothes on your back, for your food, for your family, for your friends? Like-

Seth: So this kind of ratcheted, this ratchets up-

David: Big time

Seth: ... what used to be one, what, what used to be one day a week-

David: One day a week, kind of, and more of an external thing.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Like just don't work. Now it's he's saying, "I want it every day and I want your heart in it. I want you to actually trust me that I'll provide. And not just for your food, but for your eternal being."

Seth: Yeah.

David: Like, he does ratchet it up big time.

Seth: Right. Which, which is, which would be in line what he does in the Sermon on the Mount.

David: Right.

Seth: It's like, it's not just about adultery, it's about lust.

David: Yes.

Seth: It's not just about resting, it's about trusting-

David: Yes

Seth: ... that I'll provide everything for you-

David: Yep

Seth: ... every single day.

David: And it's not one day a week. Yeah. It, it's every single day. Right.

Seth: But so, again, help me here.

David: Okay.

Seth: So I understand, like even in Leviticus, they'll talk about like the heart over and over again-

David: Yes

Seth: ... about, and its importance.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: But the Sabbath day and, is never... Like, I just wanna, I wanna get us from, okay, general principle behind the law, but how do we get to, okay, but you can do it or not do it?

David: Oh, right.

Seth: Like, like why, like how can we make that leap when we really have clear commands that says make sure you do it every day. It's an ordinance that'll last forever. [laughs]

David: Yeah.

Seth: You know?

David: It's a really hard question. And it's why there's still huge denominations that practice the Sabbath.

Seth: It's like even Paul is like, "Do, do what you want."

David: And that's kind of where I have to come down on it. And like we would probably have to have another 20 or 30 minutes on this topic to maybe come to a kernel to grab from this. But basically, it's like Paul seems to give me liberty to follow my conscience here, is that's the word he uses in Romans.

Seth: Hmm.

David: And so it's like, but, but the, the option isn't observe or don't observe. That's a false dichotomy. The, the option is observe it one day a week or every day of the week. You know? [laughs] And it's like-

Seth: Right

David: ... and, and it's like, or like observe it publicly in a grand fashion-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... where you actually don't do anything, or observe it in your heart. Like, 'cause-

Seth: Right

David: ... the real issue is not whether or not you're, you work, you know? The issue is are you trusting God to provide? Are you doing-

Seth: Right

David: ... good? Like, that's what Jesus constantly butted up against. He, the Sabbath, the man was not made for the Sabbath, but Sabbath for man.

Seth: Right.

David: Right? It's what Jesus says. And so there's also wisdom here in saying like, "You know what? I do need a Sabbath." Like-

Seth: Right

David: ... there's wisdom in this that I should take time every week to rest.

Seth: Right. I mean, I mean, the fact that the Lord does it in creation is a strong, like, just- Like, argument from prudence and wisdom.

David: Right.

Seth: Like, there's probably actually a reason why you should do it once a week-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... because if you ... There, there are Christians who live their life and be like, "I'm just gonna work every day," and you can trust God-

David: Yes

Seth: ... that way.

David: Yes.

Seth: That's possible. But there's probably something to be said, like, you should probably take time every week and just do nothing.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Because more than likely, if your rhythm every single week is to always just run on your own steam and to never rest, you'll probably start trusting your abilities more-

David: Right

Seth: ... than God's provision.

David: Yeah.

Seth: So there's just wisdom to say, "No, you should, you should stop and do nothing."

David: Right.

Seth: "You should reflect and enjoy what God has given you."

David: Yeah. And so the wrong thing for us to do right here would be to make a prescription, because that's exactly what we're saying the laws are, are not necessarily always universal-

Seth: They're applications

David: ... prescriptions. They're applications of an eternal truth.

Seth: Okay.

David: And so the eternal truth is God wants you to provide, or, or to trust that He provides and to rest in that fact. For a lot of us, that's gonna look like just, okay, then I just need to do nothing for a little bit and meditate on that fact that God provides. But, but, like, there is a, a dispensation in your heart that can just look ... That, like, your-

Seth: Right, right

David: ... your whole life can be rest.

Seth: Right.

David: And so, um, anyway, and-

Seth: This is helpful.

David: Yeah.

Seth: This is helpful for me.

David: Okay. Let's look at another one. So, um, there's also the Passover.

Seth: Right.

David: When the Passover was instituted after the, uh, 10th plague, um, right, in Egypt-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... uh, he said-

Seth: Blood

David: ... "You will, you will-

Seth: It's a lot of blood

David: ... eat this meal forever once a year."

Seth: Yeah.

David: Forever.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And now we don't.

Seth: Right.

David: Now so- now again, some Christians do practice the Seder, right?

Seth: Yeah.

David: They do practice a traditional-

Seth: Right

David: ... Passover meal. But Jesus has replaced that Passover meal with communion.

Seth: Okay. So-

David: Right? So now a law ha- now it's-

Seth: He's fulfilled. I mean, not replaced.

David: Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I mean-

Seth: He's fulfilled it.

David: Yeah, but He did really replace it. Like-

Seth: Well, I mean, the pa- the communion was in the context of Passover.

David: Yes.

Seth: It was like-

David: Right

Seth: ... He was eating the Passover meal and as the meal was ending and one of the wa- cups of wine that they had drank, He said, "This meal is about me."

David: Yep.

Seth: "This meal is about me."

David: Exactly.

Seth: We have a whole podcast about this.

David: We do.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And so, a- and so what's interesting with this one, again, it's ratcheted up. It was one meal once a year, right, to celebrate-

Seth: Right

David: ... to celebrate an amazing act of God. Now we're saying, like-

Seth: As often as you

David: ... as often as you come together and eat this meal, think about an even more amazing act of God.

Seth: Right.

David: And so it's more regular to celebrate a more radical act of grace.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: And so everything is getting ratcheted up in Jesus' law.

Seth: Right.

David: And so, yeah.

Seth: So you could say it's, you don't need to take communion,

Seth: right? Like, it's like, it's not a law that you must take communion.

David: No.

Seth: But you would be missing something profound in your Christian relationship if you refu- with the Lord, 'ca- your communion with the Lord, if you refuse to honor the eternal character of God in bread and wine.

David: Yes.

Seth: Right?

David: Yeah, absolutely. And so, um, that, that's an interesting one.

Seth: So let's take one where we still obey it. So we've had 2 where we don't really necessarily need to obey. We don't practice Passover and we don't necessarily have to practice Sabbath. Like, but what about one where we do have to still obey it?

David: Oh, like what? Like, uh, uh, like adultery?

Seth: Let's do adultery.

David: Okay.

Seth: So Leviticus 20:10.

David: Right.

Seth: "If a man commits adultery with his wife, uh, of his neighbor, both the adulterer and the adulteress shall be put to death." And then there's, there's more stipulations if you sleep with your mother-in-law, your father-in-law, your-

David: Right. And now they just get a reality show. [laughs]

Seth: [laughs] The Real Housewives of Atlanta.

David: Yeah, exactly. Uh, okay.

Seth: Not that I've watched that. [laughs]

David: [laughs] I hope not. I have to seriously reconsider our friendship.

Seth: [laughs]

David: Uh, okay. So we have a clear command to not ... If you're married, don't sleep with your neighbor's wife.

Seth: Right. And neighbor not, doesn't mean phys- it's like-

David: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Not your next door neighbor.

Seth: It's like-

David: Don't sleep with someone else.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Let's just be, let's just be-

Seth: All people are your neighbors. [laughs]

David: Right. Uh, and so Jesus picks this one up and He says, "Yep, that's still true. Uh, and, uh, and in, in fact, I'm even gonna ratchet it up and say if you even look at a woman lustfully, you've already committed adultery with her."

Seth: Yes. And then Paul will say, "Adulterers don't enter the Kingdom of Heaven."

David: Right.

Seth: So why does this one go all the way through-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... and you have to obey it-

David: Right

Seth: ... but not the Sabbath?

David: Okay. I was re- initially intimidated, but then as you kept talking-

Seth: [laughs]

David: ... I was like, "Oh, I think that's a pretty easy answer."

Seth: Yeah. [laughs]

David: I think it's because the, uh, eternal principle that manifested this law is very similar to the law that it manifested, [laughs] basically.

Seth: Okay. [laughs]

David: Even if the law and the principle are very similar. So, like, the principle would be that God is a covenant-keeping, m- marriage-loving God.

Seth: So covenant-kee- like, God-

David: Keeps His promises

Seth: ... keeps His promises. He enters into relationships with people-

David: That's right

Seth: ... for a long-term goal.

David: Yep.

Seth: And throughout the Old Testament-

David: Yep

Seth: ... the covenant that God has with His people is described as a marriage-

David: Yep

Seth: ... over and over again. And Israel's unfaithfulness to God is described as adultery-

David: Yep

Seth: ... and whatever else.

David: Exactly right. I mean, you can even, you can even zoom back and, like, kind of Ephesians this thing out, or even Daniel or Revelation, they all talk about it-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... that, like, God wrote His bride's names in the Book of Life before the foundations of the world.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And He's been eternally faithful to them. Amazing. Like, that is-

Seth: Right

David: ... some eternal covenant faithfulness. And so what God is saying, when you enter into a marriage, a covenant relationship with another person, you must remain faithful to that person-

Seth: Right

David: ... as I have remained faithful to you.

Seth: Okay.

David: And so that doesn't ... Like, we still get married today, right?

Seth: Yeah.

David: So that's another thing, is marriage is still an institution, right?

Seth: Yeah.

David: We still get married today.

Seth: Right.

David: And so when we do that, it looks very similar to when they got married 3,000 years ago, because it's still an institution.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And so don't ... There, there's something ... God did not say, "I choose th- this, I choose Israel."

Seth: Right.

David: And then He went, "Oh, you guys suck. Never mind, I choose Babylon."

Seth: Right.

David: That never happened.

Seth: Right.

David: And so, like, because God keeps His vows.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And so He's saying, "I want you to keep your vows too, because that's who I am. That's who I want you to be. I want you to be holy like I am holy. I want you to look like me."

Seth: And this goes back to, this goes to His commands on divorce as well.

David: Right. Yep.

Seth: It also helps me, this whole conversation kinda helps me with His command when m- He says, "Moses wrote those laws about divorce because of your hardness of heart."

David: Yes.

Seth: There's, like, this eternal character of God that is unchanging, but He notices the suffering and the sinfulness of His people and He's making laws based on His character to provide-

David: What? Like some leniency because we suck so bad.

Seth: [laughs] Yeah.

David: Like, he, he, he, he, he... You're, you're talking about the time when Jesus said that Moses allowed a certificate of divorce to be given to a wife.

Seth: Right.

David: And so that's grace from God. God hates divorce. The Old Testament says that, that he abhors divorce.

Seth: Right.

David: And yet, in his grace, he's like, "I know how sinful you guys are and if your relationship is so broken that you can't continue, I'm gonna allow a man to give a woman a certificate of divorce so hopefully he can enter into a marriage that will be-

Seth: Right

David: ... better."

Seth: And I think the reason why-

David: But then Jesus said, "No, no more of that."

Seth: And I think the reason why is he uses the phrase hardness of heart.

David: Right.

Seth: So hardness of heart refers to unbelief.

David: Yep.

Seth: And so the covenant people of Israel was always a mixed bag of people who truly loved Yahweh and truly trusted Yahweh and who didn't. In the church, people who are Christians, people who are bought into the coven- new covenant relationship that we have with God as his partners in this world, all of us have soft hearts.

David: Right.

Seth: So there is no... There is, [laughs] there, there's no-

David: There's no reason for a softening of the command.

Seth: Right. There's n-

David: Right.

Seth: Yeah, because we don't have hard hearts.

David: Yeah. Our hearts have been, we've been... Our heart of stone has been taken out and it's been replaced with a heart of flesh. Like, yeah.

Seth: So we just said hard things there about divorce 'cause, like, we probably have listeners who are divorced.

David: Definitely.

Seth: There is grace for divorced people.

David: Big time. Yeah.

Seth: But what we're-

David: Jesus went to... Like, the woman at the well had 4 husbands and the 5th-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... one wasn't even her husband and they were sleeping together. And there was grace for her.

Seth: This does not, does not cancel out redemption.

David: No. [laughs]

Seth: It does not cancel out God's love for you. But what it does tell us is that the way that God's law works throughout time is based on his eternal character and our covenant with him. Law is the application of God's covenant relationship in a particular time with a particular people. And that's, that's kind of what we're trying to get at here.

David: Right.

Seth: So, like, why do some continue and some not continue? Because they're based off of eternal commands in a particular moment with a particular people. I'm also thinking about sexual immorality in general.

David: Yep.

Seth: So just, like, not sleeping with somebody before you're married.

David: Right.

Seth: So, like, this is in the Old Testament and it's continued in the New Testament, but it circles back round to the same principle of covenant keeping, right?

David: Yep.

Seth: Like, God, when he entered into a covenant with you and he was, like, relationally intimate with you, [laughs] right? Like, so, like-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... that communion, that union with God.

David: Yeah. When he entered into you and took up residence in you.

Seth: Like, right.

David: Yes.

Seth: Like, these are-

David: It's very sexual.

Seth: Yeah. [laughs] Like, yeah. It's like it was, it's sexual back then-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... and sexual today. Even I'm reading a Puritan, John Owen.

David: Uh-huh.

Seth: He talks about our relationship with God as conjugal unions.

David: Oh my goodness.

Seth: Which is like [laughs]-

David: Purit- whoa, Puritans. [laughs]

Seth: Whoa, Puritans. [laughs] Puritans, really? John Owen, the most lascivious of the Puritans.

David: [laughs]

Seth: He, um... So the point is, well, how, but how did God purchase that union?

David: Yep.

Seth: With him, his whole self.

David: Right.

Seth: He withheld nothing of himself to purchase that union with you.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: So how can you, who are in that communion,

Seth: be united to somebody else without giving all of yourself?

David: Right.

Seth: This isn't, "Don't have sex. You'll get pregnant and die."

David: Right. [laughs]

Seth: This is because you have been bought with a price. The only way that you are intimate with the Lord is by giving... He gave up everything.

David: Right.

Seth: So if you want to be intimate with another human being, give up everything 1st.

David: Right. And it's like we get to be like God by showing exclusive love to another human.

Seth: Yes.

David: How cool is that?

Seth: Yes.

David: Like, and you can do that even if you've been, like, unfaithful in the past. You can say, "Right now, I get to start being like God."

Seth: Yes.

David: And, like, I get to repent. That's what repentance is. And now I get to show exclusive love to this person, and as I do that, I give my whole self to them. I'm imaging Christ on the cross. I'm imaging God's covenant love and faithfulness to Israel and his church.

Seth: Right.

David: Like, whoa. Like, that, that just zooms morality out into the stratosphere.

Seth: Yes.

David: And it's like it's not about rule keeping. It's about God is showing us ways to be like the creator of the cosmos. Like-

Seth: Yes.

David: ... we get to be-

Seth: Yes

David: ... like the greatest being in the world. And so it's not l- the law-

Seth: It is not bad

David: ... it is not rule keeping.

Seth: Right.

David: It's not bad. It is the best thing ever because it's letting you be like God. And that's what Leviticus repeats over and over and over again.

Seth: It's what Paul says, uh, multiple of his letters. When it gets really confusing, he's like, "Do I uphold the law? Do I not uphold the law? Is, am I thinking the law is bad? No, the law is good." Why? Because it makes us like God. Be... We are being made holy as God is holy. And now because of Jesus Christ living inside of us, we have new power to do so. This is why the author of Hebrews says, "It's impossible in the case of those that have been enlightened, um, who have tasted the heavenly gifts, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come and then have fallen away to restore them to repentance."

David: Hmm.

Seth: Why? Because they're crucifying once again the Son of God to their own heart, holding him up for contempt.

David: Yeah.

Seth: So d- that... Does this make sense what I'm saying here?

David: Yeah, it's a hard passage, but yeah.

Seth: It's like what we're saying here is that if we have been bought by Christ's blood, if he lives inside of us, if God is making us like him and we are trying to pull on that power-

David: Mm-hmm

Seth: ... and then say, "No, we don't want it-"

David: Right

Seth: ... the curses of the Old Testament come back-

David: Right

Seth: ... but in eternal form. You are forever never... You will not inherit the kingdom of God.

David: Yeah. Or the other way to say it is if Christ is in you, he will manifest himself in your, the way you live.

Seth: Right.

David: Like, if you've been-

Seth: The positive way to say it. [laughs]

David: The positive way to say it is if the Holy Spirit is in you, he'll make you like God.

Seth: Right.

David: Like, you will start to be more holy. You will be sanctified. You'll start following these laws.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Okay. As we wrap up here,

David: I wanna, I wanna, I wanna circle back to the Old Testament. We're about, in the next episode, we're gonna actually read a bunch of laws.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And I think after we've talked through this, I think I'm coming to a different conclusion than I came in with-

Seth: Hmm

David: ... which I'm really excited about because-

Seth: Our experiment. [laughs]

David: The experiment continues. But what, what, what it makes me excited about is we've said that in the laws, in every single law, right, if all scripture is God-breathed, if it's profitable, you know-

Seth: Yeah, yeah

David: ... like, every single law is in there to do some, to do some things for me, right?

Seth: Right.

David: One, we've said that Christ is the new treasure. So, I can see Jesus in the law.

Seth: Mm-hmm.

David: So, I'm curious to, like, open the law and how do I see Jesus behind this law?

David: 2, I'm excited to see what is the character of God, you know, behind-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... this law. Why did God's character in this culture manifest itself in, in this way?

Seth: Right.

David: And to learn more about my creator.

Seth: Right.

David: And be like, "Oh, that's what God's like. I wanna ... I can be like that. He wants to make me like that."

Seth: Right.

David: And then 3, to find out what His will is for how I live.

Seth: Yes.

David: How does He want me to function morally? What are things I need to be doing? Um, and I, and I wanna do that because apparently there's more joy for me if I live that way than if I don't.

Seth: Right. Psalm 1.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Like, uh, the tree that's planted by streams of living water-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... will produce its fruit in its season.

David: Right. And it-

Seth: Like, it flourishes.

David: Yeah. And what he's talking about is the Torah observer.

Seth: Yeah. [laughs]

David: Yeah. [laughs] Yeah. We talked ... We had a podcast about that.

Seth: Yeah. We did, yeah.

David: And so anyway, um, I, I think ... I, I wrote one other thing down as I was kind of brainstorming-

Seth: Yeah, yeah

David: ... and meditating on all this, um, is while we may not observe every direct command, like, 'cause things change. Like, we don't celebrate the Seder meal anymore. It got replaced.

Seth: Right.

David: We don't actually stop every 7th day, some of us, and do, do the Passover.

Seth: Right.

David: We don't ... We're not circumcised. We're not ... We don't have to be circumcised. We didn't talk about that. We don't eat kosher anymore, right?

Seth: Right.

David: We didn't talk about that. But we've talked about that in other episodes.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Um, so while we may not observe every direct command in the law, every law reveals something to us about God and is profitable.

Seth: Right. Yeah.

David: Like, that is just what I'm saying, is like-

Seth: Yeah, yeah.

David: Um, and, and what I think is really interesting too about this is if you could ... I know we're gonna zoom in a little bit next week-

Seth: Right

David: ... and look at laws. But if you zoom out a little bit-

Seth: Okay

David: ... and look at the whole story of Israel, 'cause this is part of a narrative, is you s- you get to see a picture of the world today and in eternity, is that, like, God has entered into a covenant relationship with people and He's holding out grace and mercy to people.

Seth: Yes.

David: He in- He invites them to come and be like Him. But those who refuse to will be exiled and will be cursed. But those who enter into this relationship and be transformed into His image are blessed with life eternal. And it's like-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... that's the Torah.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Right? That is the whole Torah. That's the story of the Torah. L- like, this is how you can live with God forever. That's the story of the Torah.

Seth: Yeah.

David: And if you don't, you will not live with God forever.

Seth: Right.

David: And that's the story of the New Testament. And, like, that's the message of the Gospel, is it's like God is holding out a covenant for you. He has fulfilled all the sacrifices that Leviticus says are necessary to live in God's presence-

Seth: Right

David: ... in Jesus Christ. So, come, receive His grace, and then allow His Holy Spirit to enter into you, take up residence with you, and manifest these laws-

Seth: Yeah

David: ... in your life.

Seth: And the, and the call here ... So, I think sometimes when we say, like, obeying laws feels like death. Like, all these laws,

Seth: I think a lot of people see it, them as restrictive.

David: Mm-hmm.

Seth: It's like, "I can't live the way that I wanna live."

David: Right.

Seth: But that's why Jesus always says to count the cost. Like, at, at Mount Sinai, He saved them from Israel, uh, saved them from Egypt, manifests His presence, this powerful display, and He says, "I will be your God and you will be my people." And then they say, "I will do all the Lord has commanded."

David: Right.

Seth: Like, we have that same choice today. God has already, has already provided salvation for us in Jesus.

David: Yep.

Seth: He has already saying, "I would desire you to be my people-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... and I desire to be your God." And our response is to say, "Actually, it would be better to be like this God that I see in Jesus-

David: Yes

Seth: ... than if I was to live contrary to my own laws I have in my heart-

David: Yeah

Seth: ... my own preferences, my own things that I wish I could act on."

David: Right.

Seth: Right? Like-

David: It's better.

Seth: It's better.

David: Yeah.

Seth: So, the appeal here is, like, Jesus' salvation for us is great, but who Jesus can make us into is so much greater than who we could make ourselves into if we followed our own desires. [instrumental music]

Outro: Thank you for listening to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel is a nonprofit dedicated to creating free gospel-centered media that speaks the gospel out of every corner of scripture. So, to join us in our mission and view our resources, we invite you to visit SpokenGospel.com. [instrumental music]

Related Resources

Listen to the Leviticus 24 and 26-27: The Death Penalty, Curses, and Vows podcast

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Should We Obey the Law Today? Understanding How Old Testament Law Applies to Christians

Show Notes

Ancient Law Is Not Modern Law

Why the Threefold Division Falls Short

The Deep Continuity Between Old and New Covenants

How Jesus Fulfilled the Law

Why Adultery Still Applies and What It Reveals About the Law's Logic

Related Resources

Introduction to Leviticus

View our devotional on Leviticus 1-3

Ready to study a different book?

Listen to the Leviticus Introduction podcast

Listen to the Should We Obey The Law Today? podcast

Listen to the Leviticus 1-5: Offerings podcast

Listen to the Leviticus 6-10: Priests podcast

Listen to the Leviticus 11-15: Unclean Foods, Diseases, and Emissions podcast

Listen to the Leviticus 16: Day of Atonement podcast

Listen to the Leviticus 17-20: Blood, Sex, and Loving Your Neighbor podcast

Listen to the Leviticus 21-22: A Different Standard For Priests podcast

Listen to the Leviticus 23 and 25: Sabbath, Festivals, and Jubilee podcast

Listen to the Leviticus 24 and 26-27: The Death Penalty, Curses, and Vows podcast