Intro: [instrumental music plays] Welcome to the Spoken Gospel Podcast. This is our attempt to speak the gospel out of every corner of scripture. We believe every part of the Bible, Old Testament and New, is about Jesus, and this podcast is our experiment to publicly test that belief. Let's jump in. [upbeat music plays]
David: Hey, and welcome, everyone, to the Spoken Gospel Podcast. We have a really exciting episode for you today. Um, we're really honored to have a guest with us on the show, which is one of your friends, right, Seth?
Seth: Yeah, his name is Cameron Cole. Say hello, Cameron.
Cameron: Hello, Cameron. [laughs]
Seth: [laughs]
David: You set him up for that.
Seth: I did, I did. [laughs]
Cameron: You did. It was too easy.
Seth: He, uh... One of the most important things you need to know about Cameron is that he's my friend. And-
David: That's the most important
Seth: ... and he loves-
Cameron: Good
Seth: ... uh, Alabama football.
David: Alabama football.
Seth: Alabama football. Bama, I think, is the way that they say it.
Cameron: Every, every Okl- every Oklahoma fan just turned off the, uh, podcast.
Seth: Yeah. Please stay.
David: Please stay.
Seth: Please stay, listeners from Oklahoma.
David: We love you.
Seth: Um, I text with Cameron often enough, and he signs off... People who have a sign-off on text messages are a certain kind of people.
David: [laughs]
Seth: But Cam-
David: Let's leave that be, uh, for now. [laughs]
Seth: [laughs] But Cameron always signs off with RTR every single time.
Cameron: Oh, no, no, no. You for- you forgot.
Seth: Oh, I for-
Cameron: RTR17.
Seth: R- that's true.
David: What's that?
Cameron: RTR17.
David: I don't know what any of this means.
Seth: [laughs]
David: Can someone please interpret?
Cameron: Roll, roll tide and roll, 17 national championships.
David: 17?
Cameron: Yeah.
David: Is that a lot? I don't really know.
Cameron: It's the most.
David: How long has football been around, 400 years?
Cameron: That's the, that's, that's the most.
Seth: [laughs] That's the most.
David: Oh, that's the most, okay. [laughs]
Cameron: Just in case you were wondering.
David: Okay. [laughs]
Seth: So Cameron is the, uh, director of youth ministries at Cathedral Church of the Advent in Birmingham, Alabama, and you've been there for a long time, like 19 years since... Right?
Cameron: Four- 14 years.
Seth: 14 years.
Cameron: 14.
Seth: 14. Still a significant amount of time. And you're also doing youth and family and children stuff there as well. Um, and you have your own children, which I've met many of. [laughs]
David: How many, how many children?
Cameron: There have been four.
Seth: There have been four.
David: Oh, man. There you go.
Seth: And, um, you, uh, are the... Oh, I'm trying to read your bio right now. [laughs] I'm struggling to get through the text message because-
David: [laughs]
Seth: ... I keep losing my place. You're the founding chairman of Rooted Ministry, an organization that promotes gospel-centered student ministry, youth ministry, and the co-editor of a book called Gospel-Centered Youth Ministry, which is great, and I give out to a lot of youth pastors.
David: Mm-hmm.
Seth: And, uh, also the author of Therefore I Have Hope: 12 Truths That Comfort, Sustain, and Redeem in Tragedy, which we'll be talking about today.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And also won one of, uh, the World Magazine's 2018 Book of the Year for Accessible Theology, which was-
David: Oh, wow.
Seth: I was really, I was really-
David: Amazing. Congratulations on that. That's cool.
Seth: Yeah, I was really c- I was really happy to see that you won that, and it was, it was pretty exciting. And then you're working, uh, on your MDiv from Reformed Theological Seminary too.
David: Aren't we all just slowly working on our MDiv? [laughs]
Seth: When will you-
Cameron: 10 years, baby. 10 years.
Seth: Yes. [laughs]
David: [laughs] There's, what is it? There's, there's comfort in... Or misery loves company. Is that it?
Seth: Misery loves company.
David: Yeah, there it is.
Seth: That's it.
David: Yep.
Seth: That's it.
Cameron: Yeah.
Seth: So we're excited to have you on, Cameron, because we're, being Psalm 22 today, talking about, um, suffering and particularly psalms of lament.
David: Yeah.
Seth: But before we kinda get there, I just wanna hear a little bit of your story and also kind of the events that led up to you writing your most recent book, Therefore I Have Hope. Um, so-
Cameron: Yeah
Seth: ... just tell us about yourself and your story and your book.
Cameron: Uh, like any parent, you know, I, um, [smacks lip] had my wildest dream and my worst nightmare and, um, you know, most people never encounter either of those. Uh, but for me, I encountered both in 24 hours. Uh, you know, my wildest dream as a Christian parent is pretty simple. It'd be that my children would know Christ as their savior and Lord. Um, you know, you'd trade in anything for your children to know Jesus and have, you know, the eternal hope of salvation. Uh, worst nightmare is kinda twofold. Uh, you know, as I said, uh, uh, or as Seth said, actually, I've, uh, been a youth minister for 14 years, and I kinda had this fear as a youth pastor that, you know, what if something happened where I lost my faith? Uh, I've had a, a really kinda cush life. Um, nice parents, Christian home, parents financially comfortable. I got to do a lot of fun things and go on cool trips and things like that as a kid. Uh, friends came easy, school came easy, sports came easy, so on and so forth.
David: Hmm.
Cameron: And so, you know, it's kinda one of those things where I always thought, "Well, of course I believe God's good."
David: Right.
Cameron: Um, you know, if you'd had as nice a life as I had, you, you'd be crazy to doubt the existence of God, um, or the promises of, of the gospel. And so I had this fear that something really bad would happen, and then I would lose my faith, and then I would be a sellout and a, a fraud and a disappointment to all these kids to whom I had, uh, proclaimed the goodness of God and the truth of the gospel. And so, so anyhow, um, I identified the, the thing that could cause me to lose my faith is the, the death of my son, Cameron, who was born in, uh, 2010. And I thought, you know... I, I'd had this real fear of what, what would happen if he died. And I would kinda see myself turning my back on God and, um, quitting ministry and just, you know, being a-
Seth: So that's something that you thought about before it, before it happened.
Cameron: Something I thought about quite a bit, yeah.
David: Wow.
Cameron: Kinda wake up in the middle of the night. And so anyhow, I, um, [smacks lip] uh, so Sep- uh, the, the, November the 10th, 2013, uh, we're sitting around playing Legos with my son Cam, and he, um, starts to ask a bunch of questions. Uh, well, he, uh, he lost his Lego ax.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
Cameron: And he asked us we could ask Jesus to help him find it.
Seth: [laughs]
Cameron: So we, we found it. We, we prayed, and we found it, and he said, "Thank you, Jesus. Thank you, Jesus." And then he looked at us, he says, "Hey, can we guys see Jesus today?" And I was like, "Well, buddy, you know, you, you can't see Jesus, but Jesus is here right now, you know-
Seth: Yeah
Cameron: ... with us through the Holy Spirit." Then he said, "Well, can we get in the car and go see him?" And, [laughs] and I was like, "Well, yeah. Um, uh, like I, you know, we- we'll you'll see him when you go to heaven, but for now you just have to, you know, trust in His presence even though we can't see Him." And, um-
Seth: How old was he at the time?
Cameron: He then said-
Seth: Three?
Cameron: He's ju-
Seth: Three
Cameron: ... just turned three.
Seth: Yeah.
Cameron: Uh, ab- ab- about two months before.
Seth: Okay.
Cameron: And so, um, then he started asking all these questions about heaven. He said, "You know, am I gonna see Adam and Eve in heaven?" "Yes. You know, it seems like God forgives their sins." And he pledged that he would not eat from that tree.
Seth: [laughs]
Cameron: "I'm not, I'm not gonna eat that tree. I'll not eat that tree."
Seth: [laughs]
Cameron: I'm like, "Well, fella, you know, everybody eats from the tree. And that's, uh, that's why Jesus came. We're all sinners." And he said, um, "Jesus died on the cross. Jesus died for my sins." And it kinda took a little while, but Lauren and I kinda realized like, wow, I think, I think we just observed our child professing faith in Christ.
Seth: Wow.
Cameron: Um-
Seth: So cool
Cameron: ... and what's, um, um, uh, what's crazy is, um, that was the last meaningful conversation I ever had with him. That night I went on a, um, that night I went on a trip to, on a camp out with, um, some guys in the youth group and some leaders and got a call the next morning from my wife. I missed three calls in like a minute and, um, a fourth call came through and she, you know, was in terror and said, "You gotta get to Children's Hospital." And I was like, "What's going on?" She's like, "You just gotta go to the hospital." And I was like, "I, I can't, you know, I can't drive like 45 minutes-
Seth: Yeah
Cameron: ... having no idea what's going on" with this, you know, terror in her voice. She just said, "Cameron is dead." Um, and, uh, and she said that she had just found him, uh, just found him dead in his bed that morning. And, you know, this was kind of the moment, um, a moment of truth. I, I, I had kind of seen this, this moment in my worst nightmares and, uh, had s- you know, envisioned myself, you know, turning my back on God and it was very surprising what came outta my mouth. Um, first thing that I said, and you know, all glory be to Christ for this-
Seth: Yeah
Cameron: ... but the first thing I said was, "Jesus rose from the dead."
Seth: Mm.
Cameron: Um, "Jesus rose from the dead. That means that God's good and this doesn't change that fact." And so I found myself very surprised that, um-
Seth: That was your first response, like, in, in the moment.
Cameron: Yeah. I was very surprised 'cause I thought it would go the other way. But in turn, what I realized, you know, in time, a- and in the next month as I was unpacking everything, is that in fact, like, God had been preparing me-
Seth: Yes
Cameron: ... my whole life for this.
Seth: Mm.
Cameron: Um, experientially, but theologically in particular through His word. And, you know, in the month after Cameron died, I, um, found myself saying over and over again, "Gosh, I have no idea how a person could survive something like this if they didn't believe in this, or they didn't know about this."
Seth: Yes.
Cameron: And then really I kept on listing off doctrines. You know, if they didn't believe in the sovereignty of God-
Seth: Right
Cameron: ... or if they didn't know about God's daily grace, or if they didn't know that God is an empathetic God, or-
Seth: Yeah
Cameron: ... didn't have the hope of heaven, so on and so forth. And I just kept on saying that over and over again. And so after about a month, I sat down and I, um, I wrote down, like, what are those doctrines that I keep on finding to be so, uh, essential and indispensable for, uh, for me having hope, uh, in the midst of this? Because even though I was in an unbelievable amount of pain and sorrow, uh, and just, you know, a kind of misery you just, you wouldn't wish on your worst enemy, um, I still had a great sense of hope and I really trusted Christ. And, um, and so I wrote down those doctrines that I found felt like were essential to holding me together, and ended up writing like a little personal confession statement.
Seth: Mm.
Cameron: Uh, so basically, like my son's, my son's accident is not... My son's, my son's death is not an accident. God is sovereign. Um, you know, everything passes through His good and perfect discretion. Um, this is not the end. Like I will, I will not be in this fallen earth forever, but, you know, there's a perfect place that's reserved for me in heaven and I'll see my son again there and-
Seth: Mm.
Cameron: Anyhow, so I would just read that personal confession to myself most days, uh, in that first year because it would continue to reor- me, re- um, reorient me to the, uh, to this narrative of hope. That's what I called it, my narrative of hope.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
Cameron: Um, and, you know, these truths of scripture that, uh, would continue to help me trust the Lord and find hope in just u- utterly miserable circumstances.
Seth: Yeah. Man, it reminds me, I know that, so it's a, it's a dark company to keep, but like we... I, and it's still not the same, stillbirth versus losing a son, um, at three. But there was this song called If by Beautiful Eulogy. Have you listened to it, Cameron?
Cameron: Sure.
Seth: And it's, it's just one... It's, I think Propaganda sings it or somebody-
Cameron: Mm.
Seth: Some spoken word poet and he says, "If you take the breath from my lungs and make an end of my life, if you take the most precious part of me and take my kids and my wife, it would crush me, it would break me, it would suffocate and cause heartache. I would taste the bitter, dark providence, but you would still preserve my faith."
Cameron: Mm.
Seth: I just remember listening to li- that line and realizing, dear God, this is why people, people leave Jesus-
Cameron: Yeah
Seth: ... over the loss of loved ones all the time. So the fact that I'm still sitting here-
Cameron: Yeah
Seth: ... worshiping-
Cameron: Yeah
Seth: ... like h- why me?
Cameron: Right.
Seth: I, I remember listening to that song, hearing that line, I was like, "Why do I still believe?"
Cameron: Mm.
Seth: "Why is God preserving me?"
Cameron: Yeah.
Seth: And I think, you know, so with the, with the book, the book is really just me working out that narrative of hope.
Cameron: Right.
Seth: You know, those 12 truths that I found to be essential, and kind of r- paralleling it with my own story.
Cameron: And, you know, Seth, I think, you know, Seth and I really, uh, have come to know each other through this ministry, Rooted, that promotes gospel-centered youth ministry.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
Cameron: And I think for both of us, you know, part of what we promote is not doing shallow, theologically substanceless youth ministry, but really teaching the kids the word, having them, the, the, um, raising them to have a really well-grounded, deep foundation in God's truth. And a lot of what motivates that is both of us know how hard life is and how painful things can be when you encounter a tragedy like losing a child. And, uh, and that's when kids re- that's when you really have to draw on the truth of God. It doesn't feel like God is good. It doesn't, you know, it doesn't feel like the, the realities of the gospel are true, but you know, um, that they're true, and you have, um, the intellectual tools to fall back on-
Seth: Yeah
Cameron: ... because, because you, you know, you're grounded in God's word. Um, and so I think that's part of our passion as youth pastors, is, uh, preparing kids to suffer-
Seth: Right
Cameron: ... knowing the day is coming, some form or fashion, whether it's-
Seth: That's-
Cameron: ... you know, a death or it's, um, a broken engagement or a diagnosis of some sort, and preparing them for that moment, building, building a foundation on the rock rather than on sand.
Seth: Yeah. I know too, like, even just in this cultural moment, like, not for just students, but for people in general, suffering is not something in the modern voca- like, suffering isn't redemptive in the modern-
David: Right
Seth: ... vocabulary. Suffering is, at best, an interruption in a sustained narrative of happiness-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... or the end of our lives.
David: Right.
Seth: Like, there's no way in which to come back from suffering if the end goal is happiness.
David: Hmm.
Seth: So, like, right? Like, if the end, if our end goal is to feel happy-
David: Right
Seth: ... as often as possible, suffering is always an interruption and can never be redemptive. So one of the things that's unique-
David: Hmm
Seth: ... about the Christian faith in this cultural moment is that it offers a new narrative of hope, restoration, character development, strengthening that our-
David: Right
Seth: ... that, that, that our cultural moment doesn't offer.
David: Yeah. And I, I-
Cameron: Yeah
David: ... it just makes me think of, like, how, um, a lot of people, like, like we, like, what, what we're talking about is a lot of people leave the faith because of suffering. Um, uh, uh, uh, it's, it's one of the questions I get all the time, especially from parents coming to me when I'm speaking at an event or something. They'll be like, "Hey, like, my daughter is, you know, leaving the faith because she just can't get over why there's so much suffering in the world or why this or that happened," um, and, and people just leave the faith. It's a constant narrative, and yet I feel like with the ex- the very existence of the lament Psalms in, i- in our Bible shows us that suffering and faith are not at a conflict, and they are not mutually exclusive categories, that God's faithfulness and goodness and extreme suffering and turmoil don't have to cancel each other out. [gentle music]
Cameron: I think one thing that's very compelling about Christianity, and in particular the Bible, is just how honest the Bible is about how dark and hard life is.
David: Yeah.
Cameron: You try reading the Bible to a four-year-old child.
David: [laughs]
Cameron: You know, try to find some age-appropriate text in the Old Testament. Uh, you know, I, I tried to, um, I read through, um, I read through, you know, 1 and 2 Samuel with my daughter.
David: Hmm.
Cameron: She, she didn't wanna do a children's Bible. She's like, "I wanna do the real Bible." [laughs]
David: [laughs]
Cameron: And, um, so we got out the Greek, you know, got out the Hebrew.
David: [laughs] Yes.
Cameron: Um, anyhow, but she, um, you know, I'm like, "Goodness gracious, like, what do I do with this?" You know? You got people getting their heads chopped off.
David: Yeah.
Cameron: You got, uh, you got affairs. You have, you know, murder. You have the, the, you know, the death of a child. Just all of these kind of things just in those two books. And, uh, yeah. And so, I mean, I just feel like the Bible is, um, doesn't pull any punches. I mean, read the Book of Judges. Holy cow.
David: Oh, man. Yeah.
Seth: Yeah, I've had people talk-
Cameron: Yeah
Seth: ... to me about the book, like, "How do I talk about this with my kids? How do I talk about this for myself?" [laughs]
David: Right.
Seth: Like, "Why is this in my Bible?" [laughs]
Cameron: [laughs] I know. Chopping up a prostitute into, you know, into a dozen pieces.
David: Yeah.
Cameron: Yeah.
David: And so-
Cameron: That's a, that's-
David: Yeah
Cameron: ... it's not, that's not easy.
David: No, it's not.
Seth: So the Bible's response then-
David: Yes
Seth: ... to suffering is lament.
David: Yeah. It's not ignore, right?
Seth: Right.
David: It's not sweep it under the rug. It's not justify it and try to see how it's all rose-colored. It's confront it head-on and talk about it honestly.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Right?
Seth: And so I think that's why we're in Psalm 22.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Psalm 22 is, like, David's honest reflection on what it means to suffer.
David: Right.
Seth: So I don't know about, about you, Cameron, but have you been, have you, did you pray through Psalm 22 during the last couple years as you've been processing your own grief? Is that something that, that was a comfort to you, helpful to you in any way?
Cameron: You know, I actually wrote about it in a little bit in the faith chapter, um, of my book.
Seth: Hmm.
Cameron: And I was, I was given a sermon, uh, I was given a sermon by, by, uh, Tim Keller about Psalm 22. Um, in the week after Cam died, I listened to it, uh, probably a dozen times. So yeah, you know, I, I, um, one of the things that Keller talks about with this Psalm is the actual presence of God versus the perceived presence of God.
Seth: Right.
Cameron: And how, you know, the psalmist does not perceive the presence of God, uh, but, but knows that there's actually, God is actually present even if it doesn't feel like God is present. So yeah, it was, um-
David: Yeah
Cameron: ... Psalm 22 is up there with-
Seth: Yeah, the first, the first line is, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" And then the third verse is, "Yet you are holy."
David: You are holy.
Seth: It's like there's that tension between-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... like, you're gone. I don't experience you. You're not here.
David: Right. I can't help but see, like, um, Cam, like your, um, ex- What would you call it? Your, your statement of hope, or what was, was that?
Cameron: Uh, narrative of hope
David: ... narrative of hope. I can't s- I can't help but see that, like, God was doing in you what he was doing in David, um, when you're writing your narrative of hope. He's like, "I can look around and I can see the truth and the reality of all the suffering in my life," but then woven throughout Psalm 22 are, is this narrative of hope, right? He's like, "You're holy. You're enthroned in praises." Like, later we're gonna see that, like, um, that you don't despise or abhor the afflicted. Uh, you, uh, the, those who are afflicted will eat and be satisfied. Like, there's these little threads of doctrinal truths woven throughout this lament Psalm, so much so that, like, critical scholars think th- they must be two separate Psalms. Like, they have been-
Cameron: Oh, I didn't know that
David: ... stitched together by a later redactor.
Cameron: Hmm.
David: But, like-
Cameron: [laughs]
David: ... it's because the world can't sit in this tension that the Chris- that, that, that, that, that, that the Christian can. A- and so I, I just, I love-
Cameron: Right
David: ... this idea of, and maybe you can talk to us a little bit more about it, Cameron, this idea of what we perceive to be true about our experience and our suffering, and that what we know to be true about who God is. Like, y- like, I mean, that-
Cameron: Yeah
David: ... that has to be something that you've wrestled with a lot.
Cameron: Well, no doubt, you know, because, um, I think that a, a lot of, you know, we've talked about, uh, people leaving the faith, uh, because of suffering and-
David: Yeah
Cameron: ... and so on and so forth. And, you know, I think for a lot of us, that our, uh, acknowledgement or confidence that God is good is purely based on emotional experiences.
David: Right.
Cameron: Uh, when we've maybe been in worship services or, uh, large group settings where, you know, we could get this sense of joy, but then something happens and all that joy is gone.
David: Hmm.
Cameron: Uh, and it's nothing but pain. And, you know, the, the f- the foundation was purely experiential and there was no, there w- th- there, there was no an- intellectual confidence in the goodness of God that came through God's word.
David: Hmm.
Cameron: And so, um, so yeah, you know, there really is this battle. There's this battle inside in suffering and in lament, and you kinda see it here in the tension, the kind of the back and forth of, of, you seem, you seem almost bipolar.
David: Right.
Cameron: There's this one side of you, and this is really the- the side that's kind of the default and the more natural side to be like, "Where is God? I deserve better than this." Like-
David: Hmm
Cameron: ... what i- you know, um, you know, "I have been wronged," and, uh, "This is not real," and just, you know, all these kind of feelings that come through, and you're ki- it's almost, it's almost as if you're, uh, you know, you're falling down a mountain. Um, and you're s- you're just spiraling. Um, and then the thing that kinda catches you is to say, "But wait, no." Like, I look at the cross and I see a God who died and suffered, uh, suffered with me, who suffered for me, who suffered on my account. Like, I see a God who lost a child.
David: Right. Yes.
Cameron: Um, and it wasn't, you know, and his child went to hell.
David: Yeah.
Cameron: My child went to heaven-
David: Yeah
Cameron: ... you know, immediately. Um, and, and so there's that battle, and the battle is almost like a battle between the emotions and, uh, and your mind.
David: Right.
Cameron: Like, what you feel and what you know.
David: Yeah, so-
Cameron: Uh, and so you can see him waging, you can s- see him in this Psalm waging war-
David: Yeah
Cameron: ... in, in the battle.
David: So we w- like, I, yeah, that, that makes a ton of sense. I, I think, I think one thing I'm curious about here is w- we, I think it's we, it's easy to understand why it's really good in the midst of lament to speak doctrinal truths about the goodness of God. Like, let that, let that-
Cameron: Right
David: ... let that chasten, counteract, sustain you through this other narrative of suffering. I think the que- the thing that I'm curious about with the lament Psalms is, okay, but why, why do we have these inspired, preserved writings in the canon of Scripture that aren't the doctrines of God? In fact, they t- they seem to say things that just aren't true. Like, David wasn't forsaken of God, and yet these things are, like, in here.
Cameron: Right.
David: A- and, like, why, why, what's the purpose of, of brash, honest, hard, angry lament? Like-
Cameron: Yeah, I think-
David: Hmm
Cameron: ... I think at least for me, I know it dignifies the emotions the Lord has given me-
David: Yeah
Cameron: ... in this world.
David: Yeah.
Cameron: Like, there is a sense in which-
David: Amen
Cameron: ... uh, like, there's like, in grief particularly, you can always feel like you're having the wrong emotion at the wrong time.
David: Wow.
Cameron: You can feel guilty for still grieving your son. "Well, you should move on by now."
David: Hmm.
Cameron: Like, you know, you, you feel in the middle of your suffering as if you should be responding differently. And so to have David, and even the f- e- most people skip over this, but the first line of Psalm 22 is, "To the choir master, according to the doe of the dawn," which would have been the melody.
David: Oh, right.
Cameron: The doe of the dawn is melody.
David: A song.
Cameron: And so, like, what does it, what does this mean? It means that these are words given to the people of Israel to dignify their suffering.
David: Wow.
Cameron: To give words to their-
David: Yeah
Cameron: ... suffering that they may not be able to express. Like, I mean, that's why books are helpful. That's why poetry is helpful.
David: Right.
Cameron: It says things that I feel but can't say.
David: Right. That's an interesting genre, like-
Cameron: Right
David: ... observation.
Cameron: Hmm.
David: 'Cause these aren't, we aren't, we aren't eavesdropping on David's private, secret, shameful reflections about how abandoned he feels. We are actually being given something that he constructed and then was, like, like, through the power of the Holy Spirit, and then was moved by that power of the Holy Spirit to say, "This is for the congregation of Israel to dignify your suffering and give you words for it."
Cameron: Yeah.
David: Like, man. Cameron, like, what are you thinking as we're talking about all this?
Cameron: Having grown up in the American South, I'm not sure if it's just a cultural thing, um, or what, but, but lament is something we have to teach people how to do.
David: Yeah.
Cameron: There's a woman in our church named Krista Cordova, and she, um, talked about and has taught about teaching her children how to lament in a tough time. Um, and you know, and it's, it's, as, as human beings, it's hard for us- And maybe it's more west- as Westerners too, but it's hard for us to live in that tension of, yes, we know that God is good. Yes, we, we proclaim the promises of God, and we hold those to be true, and simultaneously we cry out with our, our doubts and our pain, our sorrow, and, um, and our confusion, we cry out to God, um, with those things. Like, those two things coexist at the same time, and that's, that's what it means to truly lament.
David: Right. And I think what's interesting about that is I don't, I don't think the psalmist ever tells us that th- those things contradict or even form a tension. They chasten one another.
Cameron: Yeah.
David: Like, I think be- I think it's because, like, wh- when we think about God's goodness, and I think that comes down to why the problem of evil even exists at a philosophical level, is that, well, if God is good and people suffer, then you have a problem philosophically and logically. It's like, no, we need to go and define what we mean by good. And, and, and so, like-
Cameron: Yeah
David: ... I think, like, I think lament helps shape our doctrinal categories of who God is, what it means-
Cameron: Yeah
David: ... that he's good, how he acts in this world, how we should view suffering. Like-
Cameron: Yeah
David: ... it not only stands as the other side of rosy and happy and everything's great, but hey, remember, this helps us suffer, but it actually goes back even further and helps us understand better and more robustly what it means to say that God is good, that he's good even in and-
Cameron: Yeah
David: ... like, through and because of suffering.
Seth: Even, even more simply, it just teaches us how to pray-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... about-
Cameron: Yeah
Seth: ... what's wrong with us or with the world or with our circumstances. 'Cause I think one of the things that's fascinating about Psalm 22 is, like, there are very few requests.
David: Oh, that's very true.
Seth: Like, like, I think it was, I think it's Anne Lamott. She says she, "I have three basic prayers. One is help me, help me, help me. I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry." And the third is, uh-
David: Gimme, gimme, gimme.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Right.
Seth: Gimme, gimme, gimme.
David: Yeah.
Seth: Yeah, yeah. And so it's like, those are my three prayers.
David: [laughs]
Seth: Those are my three basic prayers.
David: Yeah.
Seth: But what's fascinating is you don't get a request from David until verse 11, and it's only five words. Be not far from me.
David: Wow.
Seth: So it's like, it's 11 verses of just-
Cameron: Mm
Seth: ... here's what I'm experiencing. I feel like you're far away, but I, I know you're supposed to be good, but it doesn't feel that. And like, these people are surrounding me, and people are making fun of me. I feel like a worm. I feel depressed. I feel shamed. I feel guilt. I know you're supposed to be better than that, but where are you? Be not far from me. And that's the first request we get from God.
David: Mm.
Seth: So I think a lot of time for, like, people who are suffering, it is not our, um, go-to to process in front of God.
David: Right.
Seth: It's to make de- like, "Make it better, Lord."
David: Yeah. Fix it.
Seth: Make... And like, that's not a wrong prayer.
David: No, it's not.
Seth: David prays it. But-
David: And he prays it in other psalms too. Like, like, "Lord," like, "let my enemies fall into the snare they've set for me."
Seth: But it-
David: Right
Seth: ... short-circuits suffering.
David: Mm.
Seth: Like, suffering is meant to be processed with your heavenly Father.
David: Wow, yeah.
Seth: You're not, like, you're not supposed to-
Cameron: Oh, go on, yeah
Seth: ... you're not supposed to suffer alone. And so, like, David is teaching us that God is actually indeed ca- like, he actually cares that we're suffering, and he's inviting a prolonged conversation. He's inviting, like, tensions and, like, like any, like, uh, if you listen to somebody suffering, what they most want is what? You just to hear them.
David: Yeah.
Seth: They don't want you to offer verses and like, "I'll help you. I'll be there." Um, but, like, he offers, he wants to be there with you. [gentle music]
Cameron: Well, I think the, the, the terminology I used in the doubt chapter of my book when, in talking about this was, um, was stay in the conversation.
David: Mm.
Cameron: You know, I think there's a temptation to get bitter and, like, turn away from God or to fake it, you know, to just pretend like you're not having these feelings when you really do. And the, yeah, so turn away from God with your emotion or fake, fake not having emotion with God. And so kind of bridging those, like you said, Seth, is we take those emotions to God. We lament with the Lord. And I, I, you know, you see this very well done, not just in the Psalms, but also you see it with Habakkuk, does this really, really well. Um, and he has just questions about, "God, how could you let the Babylonians come?"
David: Yeah.
Cameron: "How could you ordain this in the future?" And he is lamenting, and at the end, he trusts the Lord. He remembers who God is, and he trusts the Lord. And you see Job do it really well, too. Um, how Job cries out to the Lord and fi- you know, finally really comes to him with his questions and so on and so forth. And, and, um, uh, yeah, so those are just really good models for how God wants to hear all of our pain. God wants to hear our heart. And there's something, like, very, some, I think, I think a lot of times people see it as spiritual failure to have these doubts and feelings and confusion and, like, come on, like, we believe in the gospel. Like, the gospel tells us, what does the gospel tell us about us? It tells us that we're sinners. It tells us that we're inadequate. It tells us that we cannot help ourselves. Um, you know, that we're very flawed, deeply flawed, so flawed that God would have to die on a cross for us. And so it's, I mean, do we think that God is really surprised that we have these feelings or that we just cannot come up with the answers, um, and that we're confused? No, God's not surprised. Like, he knows just how limited we are as human beings, so much so that he sends his Son to die for us. So, um, so a- and God's grace-
David: Yeah
Cameron: ... is there for that. And so I just think that, um, the gospel, uh, what the gospel tells us about ourselves and about the grace of God should make us feel comfortable-
David: Yeah
Cameron: ... uh, in being honest with the Lord. And obviously we do that with reverence, you know. Um, we, we don't do that as petulant children-
David: Yeah
Cameron: ... um, or disrespectfully. Um, but being honest with the Lord about our emotions is that, it's, I, I, I had a s- I had a student whose mother died last week from cancer, and one of the things I told him is it's a godly thing to be honest with God about your emotions.
David: Mm.
Cameron: To, you know-
David: Yeah
Cameron: ... you're trusting the Lord in that way. You're bring- you're including him in that part of your life, and that's what the Lord wants. You're- You know, you're bringing his lordship over your pain.
David: Right. That's amazing.
Seth: Yeah. It's, uh, I think what s- stood out to me there was that, like, it- when we start to deny the role of lament, really, we start denying the role of seeing our own sin and repentance. Like, if we don't lament over our sin, we never get to the grace of Jesus-
David: Oh, wow
Seth: ... that re- resurrects us from the, from our sin.
David: Right.
Seth: Like, we need la- like, lament is woven into the gospel story, even if it was just for the fact that Jesus died first.
David: Right.
Seth: There was a gap-
David: Right
Seth: ... between Jesus' death and his resurrection.
David: Right.
Seth: Like, the gospel includes lament. It's buried in there. You can't escape lament within the story-
David: Right
Seth: ... of the gospel.
David: So, like, in the same way where, where you're talking about, like, how, um, maybe we can't properly rejoice in the fact that Jesus is gonna make all things new, he's gonna bring justice, he's gonna make peace. We can't properly enjoy that unless we enter into how broken our world is, how much we're suffering, how, how messed up-
Seth: Yes
David: ... everything is. Uh, the same is true of our sin. Like, I, like, I must lament over my sin in order to enjoy how great the relief from its burden and guilt and-
Seth: Mm
David: ... shame are. Like, that's-
Seth: Yeah, man
David: ... that's amazing. Yeah. Um-
Seth: Good word
David: ... let's, uh, let's, let's kinda turn the ship here and as we, as we wrap up, and let's look at, let's look at Psalm t- 22 and, um, and just kind of... We've made some broad observations about lament Psalms, about a few particular things that, that David says here, about its genre being congregational. Let's talk quickly about, um, some key moments that we can zoom in and see, uh, Jesus kind of, like, verse for verse here, um, a little bit. Let's kinda meditate on it.
Seth: Yeah.
David: That'd be helpful.
Seth: I think, we haven't said it explicitly yet, but Jesus prays this psalm on the cross.
David: On the cross, yeah.
Seth: So as he's hanging on the cross, he sa- he says the first line, "God, forgive me." [laughs] No.
David: Or, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"
Seth: "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" And so I've e- even heard some scholars say that, like, like, it's a- physically agonizing to say anything.
David: Right.
Seth: 'Cause in order to breathe, you have to put pressure on the nail in your feet to lift up your diaphragm to give vent to breath or voice-
David: Right
Seth: ... is extremely physically exhausting and painful. And so for Jesus to say anything-
David: Yeah
Seth: ... is remarkable. But for the fact that it'd be this psalm is even more so.
David: Right.
Seth: So think about it, the first line goes off, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" So a lot of scholars will say that what Jesus probably did when he couldn't say it, he was repeating it in his mind.
David: Yeah.
Seth: And as he's do- and as you do that, you realize there's all sorts of descriptions of the suffering Jesus is experiencing written 1,000 years before-
David: Right
Seth: ... in the Psalm of David.
David: Yeah. And not only is he, is this his inner cogitation coming out when he's ga- gasping for breath, it's also when he's saying this one line on the cross, he's saying, like... It's like when you start a song, you know, with the first line, you can sing the rest of it.
Seth: Right.
Cameron: Right.
David: He's like, "I'm including everything else that this psalm says by kicking it off with this one line." Like, he is the ultimate sufferer who's lamenting, asking God to save him. A- and we see that really clearly in, in, in several just of, like, the historical things that occur to him, right? Like, like-
Seth: Right, like, people are mocking and scorning him-
David: Right
Seth: ... verse six. People are, uh... His bone, his bones weren't, weren't out of joint-
David: But his-
Seth: ... but he's poured out like water.
David: Yeah, his hand, his hands and feet are pierced.
Seth: Yes. [laughs]
David: People are casting lots for his clothing. Uh, verse eight, uh, people are deriding him saying, "Well, he trusts in the Lord. Let God deliver him." Isn't that what the people say? They're like, "Well, he said he's the Messiah. Let, let, let God come and save him and pull him off the cross." Like, he's receiving the exact same kind of mocking. Um, and like, so yeah, this is Jesus on the cross. Like, Jesus identifies himself as this person. Cameron, what else would you kinda pull out of this text as you're, as you're looking at it?
Cameron: Well, one thing I see is, um, in verse two, it says, "O my God, I cry by day, but you do not answer, and by night I find no rest." And, uh, you know, just because we're lamenting, a lot of times when we do lament, it does kind of bring us to a place of hope and joy. But he d- he, the- there's nothing, there's no, like, there's no quick fix here. You know, he's lamenting, and it's not as if his emotional experience is changing. Um, he's not feeling the happies, so to speak.
David: Right.
Cameron: And, and then also too, he says, you know, "Be not far from me, for there, for trouble is near, and there is none to help me."
David: Mm.
Cameron: Or, "There's none to help." And I think that, I think, and Seth, I know you can probably identify with this, but man, when you really go through something really, really bad, you get very clear that there is n- how, just how, uh, impotent you are and how impotent your idols are because there is nothing that can help you-
David: Mm
Cameron: ... except the Lord. There's nothing that can heal a, a pain, a sorrow like that, and he is clear on that. "Be not far from me, for trouble is near, and there is none to help."
David: Wow. And just think about that-
Cameron: Uh
David: ... with, with Jesus on the cross. He's saying, like, like, even David at some point, God does come and save him from the situations he's in. Jesus, on the other hand, is literally forsaken. Like, his friends can't help him. He's not helping himself, and God literally is not gonna pull him off of the cross. The cup will not pass from him. Like, he will fall under this lament. I just couldn't, couldn't help but see-
Cameron: Yeah
David: ... that as you were talking there, Cameron. Keep going.
Cameron: Yeah. And, and that's, that's what Keller says. His point in a sermon on Psalm 22 is, um, we, uh, God's people, are never actually abandoned-
David: Yeah
Cameron: ... um, because Jesus was actually abandoned on the cross.
David: Wow.
Cameron: Uh, G- God, Jesus was alone.
David: Yeah.
Cameron: God had forsaken Jesus on the cross, and he did that to Jesus, uh, so that he would never have to do that to us.
David: Mm.
Cameron: So that gives us the confidence that God never, ha- has literally never turned his back on us.
David: Yeah. That-
Seth: The psalm is good new... It's good news that Jesus quoted this psalm on the cross because it tells us that what Jesus experienced, we will never, and even while we experience whatever our suffering is, Jesus knows what it's like. Like, that's why it's Jesus on the cross quoting this psalm is good news.
David: Right. And I mean, and isn't it amazing then that he can, that, like, he can say, "Never will I leave you, never will I forsake you." Like, that-
Seth: Mm
David: ... that whole idea of, like-
Seth: Yeah, yeah, yeah
David: ... like, because he's with us always, even to the end of the age, by merit of his resurrection from the dead, like, we have a sure hope that when we say, "Be not far from me," in the midst of whatever circumstances, we know that that is actually true, that we won't be abandoned because Jesus was. Man, yeah, thanks for pointing that out, Cameron. That's really strong.
Seth: I, I keep going over this verse over and over in my mind, so I'm just gonna s- say it. It's verse 9 and 10. Uh, it says, "Yet you are he who took me from the womb, and you have made me trust at my mother's breast. On you was I cast out from my birth, and from my mother's womb you've been my God." So this is a unique passage in Scripture in one sense, because it's describing God as a midwife.
David: Yeah.
Seth: So it's, like, one of the few feminine images ascribed to God. But for me personally, it's like, actually, I feel like this is where God failed. Like, he didn't bring my son from the womb, you know.
David: Oh, yeah.
Seth: He was stillborn.
Cameron: Mm.
Seth: Like, he, like-
Cameron: Mm
Seth: ... he didn't learn to trust at his mother's breast. And so, like, I... There's, there's been this sense, like, man, you, God, it feels like you failed.
David: Mm.
Seth: And I remember-
Cameron: Mm
Seth: ... I don't know how long ago it was, but somebody came up to Erica one night, one Sunday morning, and just started praying over her in the middle of worship. And, um, somebody said, like, "I know it probably feels like your womb is, like, a place of death and can only bring forth death, but the Lord wants you to know that it's actually, you birthed Reuben for heaven."
David: Mm.
Seth: And so I was even thinking, like, even as, like, the Lord failed-
David: Wow
Seth: ... to deliver my son to trust at my mother's bre- at his mother's breast, he actually delivered him into heaven.
David: Yeah.
Seth: He was a better midwife than I expected him to be, you know?
David: Mm.
Seth: Um.
David: Oh, wow.
Cameron: Wow. Dang. Thanks for sharing that.
David: Mm. Wow. Man. Um, man, thanks, Seth. That's, that's amazing.
Cameron: That's powerful.
David: Yeah, it really is. [laughs] I'm still reeling from it. That's really beautiful.
Seth: Yeah, actually crying over here. It's fine, guys.
David: Um, yeah, it's fine.
Seth: Everything's fine.
David: [laughs]
Seth: We're lamenting. It's great.
David: Um, yeah, Cameron, uh, we've, we've got just a few minutes left here. Um, what... I- is there anything else from Psalm 22 that you particularly feel like, uh, we need to bring out if we're gonna talk about this passage rightly?
Cameron: Well, I think, yeah, it is just how, uh, pain and suffering is such a sanctifying thing. Uh, you know, I think, um, you talk about, uh, with Luther, the theology of glory versus theology of the cross. And, uh, you know, a Christian, in a way that's very, very, uh, counter-cultural, can look at pain and suffering and see how redemptive and constructive and edifying it is for us as believers. You can see in verses 19 through 21 how he cries out, um, "You, O Lord, do not be far off. O you my help, come quickly to my aid. Deliver my soul from the sword, my precious life from the power of the dog. Save me from the mouth of the lion." And so spiritually, and he's, he's in this very good, good place.
David: Mm.
Cameron: He knows his need, he knows his, uh, impotence and inadequacy, and he knows that God is his only help.
David: Wow.
Cameron: And that's really the, that's really the, uh, the rhythm that we need to live in every single day. You know, here, the three of us probably, I would think, woke up with pretty comfortable circumstances today. You know, you get up, we're gonna take care of kids, go to work, um, you know-
David: Eat breakfast
Cameron: ... eat our meal, so on and so forth.
David: [laughs]
Cameron: Yeah, here you go. I, I ate, uh, shredded wheat with, um, a chopped up banana. Um, but anyhow. No, you know, and yet, uh, even though we probably have pretty nice, comfortable circumstances today, what we need, and what everyone listening needs, is we need to be in a place where we say, "You know what? This day, I have nothing apart from the grace of God and apart from the, the blessing of the Holy Spirit."
David: Wow.
Cameron: Um, I, today, in this comfortable, normal, suburban, routine day, um, I am nothing without your grace, Lord. And so, um, yeah, I mean, I think when, when we suffer, we really have to do that. We know that in a way where our circumstances cry out, your only hope is in Christ. Um, but we need that same mentality for the routine days of-
David: That's, that's really helpful
Cameron: ... you know, here I, here I bow down before you, Lord Christ. Give me your grace for this day. Give me the Holy Spirit for this day, um, to faithfully navigate everything I do, everything I encounter.
David: Yeah. I don't think I've ever viewed the, um, tho- those, those requests, like, "Deliver my soul from the sword, my life from the power of the dog," I thought those were coming from a really broken, angry place. I've always re- read 'em that way. Like, kind of like a different way of saying, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"
Seth: Yeah, yeah.
David: Like, "Hey, God, wake up. Do something."
Seth: Right.
David: But to, looking at it from this place of utter hopelessness and utter understanding that you're inadequate, that you can't save yourself, and that you're throwing yourself on the mercy of God, asking for him to help you in your suffering, being a really... You called it a really good place spiritually. [laughs]
Seth: Yeah.
David: I was like, man, that really caught me off guard. [laughs]
Seth: [laughs]
David: I was like, but uh, but it's really true. Like, isn't that the best place we can get is, "God, you're my only hope. Like, come and save me, come and rescue me. I need you. I need you to do this."
Seth: Yeah.
David: Like, oh, isn't that the best place that we can get to receive grace? Um, I think it's really helpful. I think the last question I wanna ask, I don't know if we even, if anyone will have an answer to this. I just thought it. I was like, okay, from a meta standpoint with this, with this, this chapter, this psalm, why is Jesus praying it on the cross? Like, is it just because of all the connections that we're supposed to see between, like, what David's going through and how he's the true sufferer who, who, I mean, we've kinda talked about all that, who he bears all of 'em, and he, you know, he is actually forsaken so we don't have to. Like, there's little things we can pull out of here that have a lot of good humongous truth, but is there, like- Like, why this psalm? Why not a different psalm? Like, why, why pray a psalm at all as he's on the cross?
Seth: He is always interceding for us.
David: Oh, come on. That's- [laughs]
Seth: Yeah.
David: So, that's good. Yeah.
Seth: So, like, even, even as he's taking on all of our sin and all of our suffering, and experiencing physically, like, he's not just interceding for us when he's in power at God's right hand-
David: Mm
Seth: ... clothed well. He's always-
David: Mm-hmm
Seth: ... interceding for us, even as he is suffering.
David: Yeah. Wow.
Seth: Even as we are suffering.
David: Yeah, yeah. Whew, yeah. Cameron, what, what else? Last thoughts on that from you.
Cameron: I think maybe, uh, uh, I, I think because the theme of forsaken is so, uh, pregnant in this, this psalm, maybe that's the reason why. And he, Jesus is literally forsaking my God on the cross.
David: Yeah.
Cameron: And so maybe, maybe that's why this is the one-
David: Yeah
Cameron: ... um, that he's praying.
David: That's a good point. That's a really good point. Well, man, this has been a really helpful, a really helpful episode for me. Um, I think it, it's really, it's not what I expected. I, I don't think I expected lament to be brought about as this spiritually healthy place to be in. You know, I thought it was like this, uh, permission slip. I think that's how I've always viewed the psalm, the, the psalms of lament-
Seth: Right, right, right
David: ... where it's like, "Hey, it's okay to go to God and, and talk to him, like, and, and air your grief." And, like, we've said that.
Seth: Yeah.
David: But we've also said something very different that I wasn't expecting, which was, like, this isn't just a permission slip. Going and taking your burdens to God and being in a desperate place of needing him is a spiritually healthy place.
Seth: Mm-hmm.
David: I think that's what's ultimately caught me on, caught me off guard with this whole thing, and what will ultimately help me pray these better.
Seth: Yeah.
David: Um, so man, Cameron-
Seth: Mm
David: ... thank you so much for being with us. This has been-
Seth: Yeah, man. Thank you
David: ... really helpful. Um, what's... Will, will you kinda give everybody the name of Cameron's book again?
Seth: Yeah. Therefore I Have Hope: 12 Reasons. I forget the rest of the subtitle, [laughs] but it's on-
Cameron: 12, 12, 12 Truths. 12 Truths-
Seth: 12
Cameron: ... That Comfort, Sustain, and Redeem in Tragedy.
Seth: There you go.
David: There you go.
Seth: Uh, look it up on Amazon, Cameron Cole, Therefore I Have Hope.
David: And then the Rooted, Rooted blog is, what's the URL for Rooted?
Seth: Rootedministry.com.
David: Yep.
Seth: Uh, you can see a bunch of gospel-centered content. Cameron, you contribute, I know, fairly re- regularly, but there's also, like, a whole bunch of writers that-
David: Yeah, you write on there
Seth: I do write on there.
David: Yep.
Seth: Yeah, yeah. So, um-
David: Yeah. Yeah, that's great. Well, this has been really helpful, Cameron. We really do thank you so much for your time and for your story. We thank God for your faith and, uh, how he's using you as a light. So just, uh, thank you for everything, man.
Cameron: Thank you, guys. This was so edifying and encouraging.
David: Absolutely. All right, guys. Well, uh, thank y'all for joining us this week, and, uh, we will see you next time. [upbeat music]
Outro: Thank you for listening to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel is a nonprofit dedicated to creating free gospel-centered media that speaks the gospel out of every corner of scripture. So to join us in our mission and view our resources, we invite you to visit spokengospel.com. [upbeat music]
