2 Corinthians Overview: What is an Apostle?

Seth: Yeah. The question you started with was like, well, why this model? I think the only answer to that is like, God seems to choose small numbers for the benefit of all. And the apostles are a new representation of God's people through whom blessing will flow to the entire world.

Christine: Welcome to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel is a ministry that's dedicated to speaking the gospel out of every corner of scripture. In Luke 24, Jesus told his disciples that every part of the Bible is about him. In each episode, hosts David and Seth work through a passage of scripture to see how it's all about Jesus and his good news. Let's jump in.

David: Well, welcome everyone to the Spoken Gospel Podcast. Thank you so much for joining us. We are starting a new book today, Second Corinthians. The second one, Fourth Corinthians, or yeah, depending.

Seth: There are a lot of interactions between Paul and the Corinthian church. And this is the second that we have.

David: You were explaining this to me, and I did not fight for clarity so I could do it live here. So I have no idea exactly which number of letters this is to the church in Corinth from Paul.

Seth: Corinth might be the church that we have the most back and forth information about between Paul and, like, one of the churches that he planted. So it seems to have been the church that he had the most long standing relationship is probably the wrong word, but like the most tumultuous relationship with.

David: That's a different word.

Seth: And so therefore the longest, like, history of interaction with.

David: Interesting.

Seth: So we'll. We'll talk about all that.

David: Yes. So I'm excited to talk about it. Inside of Second Corinthians is a verse and a passage that has meant a lot to Spoken Gospel.

Seth: That's right.

David: Talking about how as we behold Jesus in Moses writings of the Torah, we become like his image and glory transformed. So I think we'll do a special episode just on that. So.

Seth: That's right.

David: Second Corinthians is special for many reasons. It's God's word. It's written by Paul, but also has a little gems in it for us. You know, lots of good things. But okay, so we've done an episode on First Corinthians.

Seth: We did three episodes on First Corinthians.

David: Three episodes of First Corinthians.

Seth: And in those episodes, we kind of did, especially in the first one, like, a lot of preliminary matters about what Corinth the city was like and what Corinth the church was like. And if you're interested in that information, you can go back and listen to them. Paul is kind of not engaging in Second Corinthians with Corinth as a city or even Corinthian culture as much as he is dealing with a new problem that has arisen that calls into question his credentials as an apostle of Jesus. And a group of people he calls false apostles have, like, come into Corinth after he left and have stirred up a good degree of division in the church and caused some in Corinth to reject Paul or at least threaten to reject Paul in the ministry that he brought and the gospel that he brought.

David: Yeah.

Seth: So Second Corinthians is a response in a lot of ways to that crisis. And so what Paul's doing in Second Corinthians is defending his own ministry as an apostle of Jesus and kind of going on the attack against these false teachers. So those preliminary matters don't know, necessarily come up.

David: But yeah, no, that makes sense because in 1 Corinthians, there's a lot of ethical issues and morality issues and even how the function of a church meeting should go. And it was a lot to do.

Seth: Prophecy and how not to do prophecy.

David: There was a lot of blending of the Corinthian pagan culture mixed now with Christianity and what is Christ like and what isn't? And so here, though, in 2 Corinthians, what's always been kind of hard for me, as I read it, is it is such a long discourse on Paul's defense of his authority, his, like, his apostleship, which is a weird concept. And it's like, why do I have in my inspired Bible an extended discourse of a church leader defending his leadership position? Like, it can feel a little even cringey.

Seth: Yeah. I was thinking about this. Like, it would be weird if my pastor wrote Second Corinthians, like, defending why he was such a great talk about, like, why.

David: What's the difference there? Why is it. Why is it actually cringey if your pastor wrote something like Second Corinthians, but maybe not cringey because Paul did.

Seth: Yeah. I think the best way to do it is just to talk about what is an apostle.

David: Okay.

Seth: Because that's.

David: That's what's on the line.

Seth: That's what's on the line.

David: Okay. In a lot of ways, not his bruised ego or his control issues.

Seth: Right. And I think that's why.

David: Authority complex.

Seth: That's right. All. Because all those things would. We would assume are on the line when our pastor. I love my pastor. I'm not saying he's got a big ego. He's trying to defend, but like something more is going on in the Book of Corinthians than would be going on in a conversation about the relative authority. Okay, so you're saying church pastor Paul.

David: Is defending his authority as an apostle.

Seth: Yes.

David: What on earth does that mean?

Seth: Yes. So an apostle. The word just means messenger or like sent one. That's all it means. That's what the word means. However, Jesus understands that the apostles are a subset of all of his disciples. So in the book of Luke, chapter 6, verses 12 and 13, Jesus chooses the 12 apostles. And he says this in Luke, chapter 6, verses 12 & 13. So Jesus goes out on the mountainside to pray and spends the night praying to God. And when morning called, he called his disciples to him and chose 12 of them whom he also designated apostles. So Jesus calls all of his disciples to him, and from the group of disciples, he appoints 12 to a particular ministry that he calls apostleship. So I think the first thing we're supposed to see here is that it is distinct from simply being a follower of Jesus. There's a special type of relationship and ambassadorship that these 12 have in comparison to the rest of the apostles. And I think you even get a hint of that in the number 12 because 12 is a very significant number for the people of Israel.

David: Yes, the 12 tribes.

Seth: The 12. There's 12 tribes of Israel. So Jesus seems to be, as he is proclaiming the gospel of a new kingdom. Yes, These are the 12 representatives of the new kingdom of God. And Jesus even says that explicitly later on in the book of Luke, In Luke chapter 22, during the Lord's Supper, he is talking about the nature of true leadership. And at the very end of his little conversation about the nature of true leadership, he says, you, the apostles are those who have stood by me in my trials, and I confer on you a kingdom just as my Father conferred one on me.

David: Okay.

Seth: So Jesus sees these apostles as the foundational rulers or ambassadors of the kingdom of God on earth once he dies.

David: Okay.

Seth: And so in the rest of the New Testament, kind of picks up this idea that the apostles are this special set apart group of disciples who act.

David: As ambassadors of the kingdom.

Seth: Special foundational ambassadors, because ambassadors have to.

David: Be chosen, sent, delegated, like. Like given a certain level of authority.

Seth: That's right. That's right.

David: Okay. Yep.

Seth: In Ephesians 2, it says, When Paul is talking about, like the makeup of the church, he says, we are no longer foreigners and strangers to one another, but fellow citizens with God's people and members of his house built on the foundation of the apostles and the prophets, with Christ Jesus being the chief cornerstone. He has this extended metaphor about the church as a home. And it's built on the prophets of the Old Testament and the teaching of the apostles. And even as soon as Acts 2, so the day the Holy Spirit falls, the church is gathering together for the first time. 3,000 people are saved. The Holy Spirit has just come after all this happens. We're told this In Acts chapter 2, verses 42. And they, this new church that has just formed around the outpouring of the Holy Spirit and the proclamation of Peter, the chief apostle, they, these people devoted themselves to the apostles teaching and to the fellowship into the breaking of bread, into prayer. So the first mark mentioned of the first church post Jesus resurrection is a commitment to the apostles teaching. So I say all that to like round out a picture of like, what is an apostle as distinct from a disciple? It seems to be an apostles, someone chosen by Jesus to carry on the foundational work of building and setting churches in that in the first churches of the kingdom of God and establishing the teaching of the doctrine of the kingdom of God on the earth. So there we go.

David: Okay. Yeah, I think what's not confusing, but I still have questions.

Seth: Yes.

David: Why this model? Or you know, what's the. What, what, what purpose did they serve? Why didn't, why wasn't it more democratic or widespread? And it was so it was more localized and you had the 12. Even after Judas, one of the 12 betrays Jesus, they have to elect, you know, a 12th through the Holy Spirit.

Seth: That's right.

David: That he appointed. Yeah. And it's like, okay, there, now we have the 12. Now we can lay this foundation for the church. Yes. Why this model? And then I'll have another question about. I guess we can ask God.

Seth: Yes. We can ask about the 13. I guess we can ask God when we get there. Why 12 and why this model? And I mean, I think there's probably something about. I haven't thought about this question until in this particular way, but the pattern throughout Scripture is that God chooses some for the benefit of all. God chose Israel, though they were the least of the king.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And the smallest and the smallest of the king.

David: Small little things so that they would.

Seth: Bless the entire world.

David: Right.

Seth: And in a similar way, it seems as if God is repeating that mission of the people of God in the Old Testament with the new covenant mission of Jesus the Messiah. So Jesus calls out 12 who are not particularly impressive. 12 as you go through the story but these 12 representations, those through whom the whole world will be blessed.

David: Yeah. And immediately after Acts 2, the 12 turn into what, 3,000? Yeah, that's right. And it's like, oh, fruitful and multiply. There it is. It's happening. The mustard seed is growing.

Seth: And we normally think about, like, Matthew 28, which is the Great Commission passage, as something for all believers. And that is totally true.

David: Yes.

Seth: However, Jesus does speak it to his disciples, specifically. And firstly. And he says, all authority has been given to me, Jesus, Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to obey everything that I've commanded you, and surely I am with you until the end of the age. And then it's fascinating. So that's Matthew 28.

David: And then it is just the 11 who. He says that, too.

Seth: That's right.

David: Yeah, that's right. The 12 minus Judas @ that point.

Seth: That's right.

David: That's interesting. And he's giving his authority to his apostles.

Seth: Yes.

David: To go into the world and make disciples. Okay. Yeah.

Seth: And specifically the fact of teaching here, which is brought up again in Acts 2. So it's like, oh, they are continuing the mission that Jesus gave them.

David: Yeah. And it's also interesting to think, like, we need Jesus with us to form his church.

Seth: Yes.

David: But he went to the Father, but gave us his spirit.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Through whom he would teach us everything that he commanded.

Seth: Right.

David: He's with us to teach through his body, which started in these 12 men. Yeah. And now that body is growing. But the foundation of it was the apostles, and they were chosen, set apart, sent, filled and instructed. Yes. With a specific mission. To lay a foundational teaching for the church.

Seth: Yes.

David: Not. And I think we've established the biblical pattern not because they're special. Yeah. In themselves, but because of who sent them. Yes. It's not who they are, but who they were sent by.

Seth: Yes.

David: That makes them special. And so that's. That's interesting. Yeah.

Seth: The question you started with was, like, well, why this model?

David: Yeah.

Seth: I think the only answer to that is, like, God seems to choose small numbers for the benefit of all.

David: Right.

Seth: And the apostles are a new representation of God's people.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Through whom blessing will flow to the entire world.

David: Right.

Seth: So I think that's.

David: Yeah. And I think that my other question behind, like, why this model is, like, why people in this way? You know, like, why didn't Jesus just stay around and teach people? You know, and it's like, that's just. I Think goes back to the garden. And he always does things with humans. With humans. In partnership. He's going to build his kingdom, grow his garden. Yeah. In partnership with humans. That's what he's always done.

Seth: That's right.

David: And as Adam and Eve were supposed to be foundational to the garden.

Seth: Yes.

David: The apostles are foundational to the church. And that's. That's helpful, I think.

Seth: Yeah. And then I want to say one more thing here too, about who apostles are meant to be.

David: Okay.

Seth: Because Jesus speaks directly to the apostles multiple times about how they are supposed to carry this authority in this special delegated ambassadorship that will mark all of Paul's letter that we're about to go into.

David: Okay.

Seth: So at one point in time in the book of Matthew, in chapter 20, James and John's mom comes up and says, hey, when? Now that you've chosen your 12 like, and when your new kingdom comes, can you make sure that my boys sit at your left and right hand in the kingdom of God? And all the disciples, like, I wish I asked that question. To which Jesus responds this way. He says, you know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great ones exercise authority over them. However, it shall not be so among you, but whoever would be great among you must be a slave. And whoever would be first among you must be your slave. Even as the Son of Man, referring to himself, came not to be served, but to serve and give his life as a ransom for many.

David: Yeah.

Seth: So we normally take that as like an abstracted principle for Christian leadership. But remember, Jesus has promised to confer a kingdom to these new representatives of the new covenant. And they represent a new era of leadership for all of God's people. And he says very specifically to these men that the nature of your leadership will be one of slavery and service. And then he does this again in Luke 22. That's that a similar. He has a similar conversation in Luke 22, right after the Lord's supper, right after he promises he's about to die or that he's going to die later. Later than that weekend.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And in that same conversation, in that same moment, he tells them, the kings of the Gentiles lord it over them in Luke 22. And those who exercise over them call themselves benefactors, as if they're doing some favor to those they rule over. But you are not to be like that. Instead, the greatest among you should be like the youngest. And the one who rules like the one who serves. And he goes on and he talks about conferring the kingdom to them. And he says this, you are those who have stood by me in my trials, and I confer on you a kingdom, just as my Father confirmed a kingdom on me, so that you may eat and drink at my table and sit on thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel. So it seems. I just wanted to put here. When Jesus is speaking to his apostles about that role that he has assigned them, he always couches it in terms of service and places it in the context of suffering as well. And in both of those cases, Jesus, death is on the horizon. When James and John's mom asked that question, Jesus has just prophesied his death. And in the Lord's Supper, obviously, he's only a few days from dying. So I just wanted to place. When Jesus talks about who is an apostle, he's also talking about this elected class of suffering servants who will come alongside him.

David: That's right. So when Paul starts defending his apostleship in this letter, we shouldn't project our views of domineering authority.

Seth: Right.

David: Instead, we should be like, he's fighting to serve this church, to die for this church, to suffer for this church, which, in fact, is what he has done.

Seth: That's right.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Whenever we defend our authority, we assume a type of pettiness.

David: That's right.

Seth: To that conversation. And Paul goes to great pain throughout the letter of Second Corinthians to, like, disabuse the Corinthians of that notion, because.

David: The apostles are building Jesus's kingdom. And Jesus built his kingdom as the cornerstone through death, service.

Seth: That's right.

David: Sacrifice.

Seth: That's right.

David: And so if they're going to lay that foundation with him. And like a lot of the prophets, they. They suffered, wept.

Seth: Yes.

David: Like, went through horrible things to serve Jesus, you know, to serve God. Same with the apostles, that they're going to die, suffer and serve. Which is interesting. Then that's why they're a foundation, is they're low, they're on the bottom. Yep.

Seth: They're serving, they're unseen.

David: Yeah. You know, everything gets built on top of that, but they're the ones at the bottom holding it up by going to the grave. It's interesting, too, that, you know, all the apostles, or at least almost all of them, because we. Not. We're not exactly sure what happened, but almost all of them were martyred for their faith. They died like Jesus, or were at least severely persecuted, exiled, you know, and suffered. And so they lived up to this calling. Jesus said, if you want to be my apostle, you're going to have to serve. And they did. And that's what the church was built on, was sacrifice. Yeah.

Seth: And then very practically, too, Jesus's, like, description of that servant oriented, suffering oriented style of leadership actually affects Paul in how he commands people to do things throughout his letters. So I thought this was really interesting. There's some. At some moments, Paul can lay down the law and he can admit that he is speaking God's own words and that people who are truly spiritual should recognize that he is speaking God's own word. And he does this in first Corinthians, actually. He says, if anyone thinks they're a prophet or otherwise spiritual, let them acknowledge that what I'm writing to you is from the Lord. But generally, the way that Paul exercises his apostolic power is not by like, fiat, like, not by command or decree, but by, like, convincing. And so in First Thessalonians, when he's describing his ministry, he says this. We are not looking for praise from people, not from you or anyone else. Even though as apostles of Christ, we could have asserted our authority. That's 1 Thessalonians 2, 6. Paul seems to understand that he has a type of authority to dictate behavior and dictate practice, but that he's also hesitant to use it or act on it. He does the same thing in the book of Philemon when he's talking to a slave owner about receiving back a runaway slave.

David: He's like, I could command you to do this.

Seth: He's like, I could command you to do this, but I don't.

David: I'm gonna plead with you instead. And that's right, convince you.

Seth: And even in First Corinthians, when he's admitting that, like, what he's saying is of the Lord, he's still putting his saying up for judgment. He's saying, if you are truly spiritual, discern whether or not what I'm saying to you is from the Lord or not.

David: He's not saying, like, this is just true. Do it. Even though he, I guess, has the authority to do that because he has been sent by Jesus with his authority.

Seth: And even in First Corinthians, he equivocates. He's saying, I don't. In 1 Corinthians 7, when he's talking to people who are not yet married, even he says, like, I don't have a command from the Lord on this, but I do give you my like, judgment in this matter. And so, like, Paul seems to be aware of the authority that he's been delegated, and yet it has Been shaped by that servant, servant oriented suffering quality that does not lord it over others.

David: Right.

Seth: Throughout his ministry.

David: Yeah.

Seth: So yes.

David: Which is exactly what Jesus did in his ministry.

Seth: Right.

David: Like, that's exactly how he taught he could have done things very differently, but instead, convinced, spoke parabolically, suffered with people, endured them, like, let them have wrong thoughts about him, and continued to tend them, shepherd them, heal them, serve them, and then ultimately die for them. And his apostles, and then us as his disciples, even are trying to replicate that.

Seth: That's right.

David: Yeah, that's right. Okay, that's helpful. I think I have a sense of apostleship now. But we have a 13th apostle.

Seth: Oh, yeah.

David: And one, I believe he says untimely born.

Seth: Yes. In 1 Corinthians 15, he talks about himself as one untimely born and the least of the apostles because he persecuted the church. So Paul recognizes that he is outside the 12. And if it is right, like we talked about, like there was like 12 tribes of Israel, there's a new 12 leaders represented, the new covenant community that God is building to add a 13th is out of step with that 12 numerical pattern that seems to be representative or seems to be important to the original apostles.

David: Yep.

Seth: So, like, Paul recognizes that.

David: Oh, totally. But the fact that there's a 13th just coincides with his calling Is one outside Israel. The Gentiles.

Seth: That's right.

David: The extra one, the nations.

Seth: So Paul, as I think most people know, was a person, like, was originally against the original apostles.

David: Yes.

Seth: He had a sustained campaign to kill and persecute the churches the apostles and their followers were planting after the day of Pentecost.

David: Yeah. As a Jewish Pharisee.

Seth: As a Jewish Pharisee defending the law. Yes.

David: Yeah.

Seth: But as he's traveling on his way to Damascus to, you know, take out whoever's next on his hit list, he has this amazing experience on the road to Damascus where a bright light shows up. Jesus speaks to him directly. He goes blind. And this is actually important autobiographically because it comes up in second Corinthians. He goes blind. He finds his way to a follower of Jesus in Damascus named Ananias, who prays for Paul. Blindness goes away, he receives the Holy Spirit. And the next story we hear is that he's preaching the Gospel in the synagogues. But one really important verse is Acts 9, chapter 15. And Ananias is debating whether or not he should pray for Paul because presumably Ananias might be on the hit list.

David: Totally.

Seth: Saul was coming to, like, enforce, but God tells Ananias, go for he is A chosen vessel of mine to bear my name before Gentiles, kings, and the children of Israel, and for I will show him how many things he must suffer for my sake. And so Paul's ministry begins as one to those outside Israel. And Paul self identifies that throughout his letter.

David: Yeah. Very clear understanding of his commissioning.

Seth: That's right. So the reason there's a 13th is because it's an admission that the full people of God are not just the.

David: 12 tribes of Israel.

Seth: Not the 12 tribes of Israel. And so he is one doing the ministry of bringing the gospel to bless the entire world. So he's a necessary part of what, even in the Old Testament, like the trail tribes of Israel was supposed to be a beacon of light to the rest of the world, and they would come and experience the goodness of God. And Paul is an ambassador of that kind of that light in the world.

David: That's cool.

Seth: Which is fascinating.

David: And so one of the places he took his light was the church in Corinth.

Seth: That's exactly right.

David: That's exactly.

Seth: That's exactly right. Yes. So Paul begins as he's, like, traveling. He ends up in Corinth and spends a year and a half there planting a church.

David: Yep.

Seth: However, after about a year and a half, he starts to run in with the local Jewish establishment. They resent the ministry that he's building there. And Paul's normal practice was to start in synagogues, teaching in synagogues and bringing Jewish people to the Messiah that they've been waiting for.

David: Yeah.

Seth: However, you know, Jewish leaders did not like Paul functionally. What they saw is stealing people from churches. They start persecuting him, start at least one riot and run him out of town.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And sadly, and we talked about this a little bit in the first episode, the first Corinthians podcast, but while he's out of town, he starts to hear these troubling reports of things that were happening in Corinth, like quarrels, were rising up, divisions along socioeconomic lines, and that one of the men was sleeping with his. With his stepmother.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And so he writes a letter, which we don't have, to the Corinthians, correcting them on this behavior. And he even talks about that letter in First Corinthians saying, I sent you a letter talking about these issues. And that prompts the Corinthians to write their own letters, which we don't have, basically arguing with Paul, saying they have the right to do these things and questioning Paul's authority to dictate their behavior in these matters of sexual morality. And church polity and the way they're practicing the Lord's table and spiritual gifts and whatever else. And this is what prompts Paul to write First Corinthians, the letter we have in our Bible as First Corinthians. It is a defense in some ways of his authorities and impossible more. It's like arguing with their arguments that they presumed were convincing to continue their inappropriate behaviors.

David: Okay, so, yep, yeah, I'm following. Yep, you're following. Paul writes First Corinthians, which we don't have. So the Corinthians.

Seth: No, no, no.

David: He writes the first letter to the Corinthians, which we don't have, and then the Corinthians write first Paul to Paul, and then Paul writes Second Corinthians, which is our First Corinthians.

Seth: That's right.

David: I'm so tragic.

Seth: You're so tragic.

David: So clear.

Seth: So at the very end of First Corinthians, Paul said.

David: At the end of.

Seth: 1 Corinthians, Paul says, hey, I'm going to be traveling through Macedonia and I'm going to come visit you at the end of that trip. Get ready for me to arrive. Timothy's the one delivering this letter, and I expect him to deliver a good report to me on my way to you. Okay, so that's what he promises at the end of First Corinthians.

David: Yep.

Seth: Okay. But when Timothy meets back up with.

David: Paul, Timothy delivers First Corinthians.

Seth: Yes.

David: Come. He sees what's going on in the church, meets back up with Paul. Okay, that's right.

Seth: He meets back up with Paul, and Paul gets a pretty concerning report from Timothy that prompts him to change his travel plans.

David: Okay.

Seth: And presumably there might be another. It's like everybody debates how many, precisely how many levels of communication there were. But at some point, Paul communicates to the Corinthians that he's changing his travel plans from First Corinthians, which is, I'm going to travel through Macedonia and visit you at the end to. Actually, I'm going to start my trip in Corinth, go up to Macedonia and then come back down to you visiting you twice.

David: So he's like, I need to get there faster because of this bad stuff that Timothy told me. So I'm coming now, and then I'm going to come. Then I'm going to go to the Macedonia stuff, and then I'm going to come back to make sure you're still listening to me.

Seth: That's right.

David: Okay.

Seth: So there's.

David: So that's 3rd Corinthians who knows at this point? I'm counting.

Seth: You're counting that that is somehow communicated to the Corinthians.

David: Okay. Might have been First Timothy.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Timothy's first message to them. I'm sorry, everyone. I'm getting too much of a kick out of this. Okay, I'm tracking.

Seth: So Paul comes to Corinth.

David: Yep.

Seth: Comes to Corinth.

David: After First Corinthians.

Seth: After First Corinthians. And when he gets there, the trip just goes horribly wrong.

David: Oh, no.

Seth: So the concerning report brought on by Timothy prompts the trip. And when he gets there, things just devolve really, really quickly. So as Paul is there, Paul talks about this in 2nd Corinthians, chapter 2 and chapter 7. A member of the church basically stands up and publicly attacks Paul, slanders him in some way, misrepresents him. We don't precisely know.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Paul says it grieves him what happens to him. And presumably it is public enough and a powerful enough critique of Paul and his ministry that the Corinthians kind of feel like unable to defend Paul in the moment. And so Paul just hears this attack from one of these men. The Corinthian Church he helps plant says nothing in his defense, and Paul leaves.

David: The church to go back up to.

Seth: Macedonia, presumably to go back up to Macedonia. Let me say one more thing about what happens while he's there. So not only has that occurred, but presumably the sexual immorality and the idolatry that was Paul corrected in his first letter isn't really dealt with either. So that's still ongoing.

David: Any idea of who this person who stood up and publicly accused Paul is?

Seth: There is debate.

David: Okay.

Seth: What everybody agrees on is that it happened.

David: Okay.

Seth: That there was somebody who stood up in that second. The meeting that Paul had that publicly accused Paul questioned his authority in some way where the Corinthians did not defend him. And this is a great cause for division in the church. Some people think it might actually be the guy from First Corinthians who was.

David: Sleeping with his stepmother that he called out.

Seth: That he called out. And then Paul said, hey, church, you need to push this guy out of your church in hopes that he would recognize the severity of his actions, desire repentance, and come back in. So you could imagine if you're that guy being pushed out of your local church, you would be questioning the authority of the person who pushed you out of it.

David: Totally.

Seth: Who is he to say that I'm doing this? Everybody else is visiting the idol temples and being sexually immoral. And as we've already hinted at, there is this group of false apostles that are sowing seeds of distrust in Paul. So perhaps it's the same guy inflamed by all these things.

David: Probably something like that. If not that. Exactly.

Seth: So that's the best reconstruction that will come up.

David: So Paul gets publicly challenged at his beloved church plants.

Seth: Right. Is unable to affect any reconciliation, sees ongoing immorality like a lack of contrition, and he leaves for a port city called Troas so that he can get up to Macedonia.

David: Okay.

Seth: And while he's in Macedonia, he is heavily persecuted. Like, he talks about it multiple times in the letter. It's just how he's on the verge of death. A couple of times during that trip, just like put yourself in the mindset of Paul, he has a concerning report about the church. He goes there, is publicly accosted. Nobody comes to his defense. Nobody seems to be listening to his commands. Then he goes to another city only.

David: To be physically persecuted.

Seth: Physically persecuted on death's doorstep.

David: Fun.

Seth: So Paul is in a rough spot.

David: Yeah.

Seth: With his relationship with Corinth and personally.

David: Gosh.

Seth: And remember, he promised to go back to Corinth after his trip to Macedonia.

David: Yep.

Seth: But he decides not to do that. Instead, he writes a letter, Second Corinthians, which we don't have.

David: Oh. Oh. Which we don't have. So Fourth Corinthians. Okay. Which we don't have. Okay, great.

Seth: He calls it in Second Corinthians a distressing and sorrowful letter.

David: Okay.

Seth: And in it, he basically takes the Corinthians to task for not defending him and calls the Corinthians to publicly rebuke the man that publicly rebuked him.

David: Sure.

Seth: And to correct that behavior.

David: Okay.

Seth: Paul will say he kind of. Paul's conflicted about the letter that he wrote in 2 Corinthians a, 7, 8. He says that he both doesn't regret the letter sending the letter and regrets sending the letter at the same time. So presumably he knows it was necessary and it actually works. The severe letter, the sorrowful letter, actually produces the repentance he was hoping for. The church comes to his defense, they push the guy out, that guy repents, and he wants to come back into the church. Everything goes well.

David: It was such a sorrowful, hard letter. I almost didn't send it.

Seth: Yes.

David: But I'm glad I did, because it produced the change.

Seth: That's right.

David: Which I think we've written. Many of us have probably written letters like that, Conversations like that. So, Paul, I regret that I had to have this conversation, but I'm not regretful that we had it.

Seth: Yes. So Paul sends that sorrowful letter with Titus. Titus takes that letter to Corin.

David: Titus, not Timothy, Not.

Seth: Yeah, Titus this time.

David: Okay, I know.

Seth: I. I mean, just tell the story.

David: Just. At least we're not adding Elijah and Elisha. Just throwing everything off.

Seth: So Titus delivers the letter to Corinth, the sorrowful letter. And as I said, it works.

David: Okay.

Seth: What? Paul hopes the letter would affect repentance and change and camaraderie and reconciliation. It begins to work.

David: Okay.

Seth: Right.

David: Yeah.

Seth: So Titus brings that report back to Paul. Great news, Paul. The church is willing to reconcile. They want to affect the change that you're seeing. That man who publicly rebuked you has repented and understands why he did what was wrong. Great news.

David: So this next letter should be really happy.

Seth: Yeah, it should be. But Titus also brings some other concerning news as he returns. So, one, there's this group of false apostles who have infiltrated the church since his last visit and who are calling into question his authority to be an apostle. And I think maybe specifically more than authority, like the sufficiency or competency of his ministry. And that is eventually a critique of his authority. Who is Paul to say that you should or shouldn't do these things? We are more authoritative. And the basis of their critique was essentially all the things that we've already mentioned. Hey, Pete, nobody's listening to you. Sexual immorality is still rampant in the church. You're constantly suffering and being persecuted. You've come into Corinth, planted a church. But who are you really, Paul? Are you. Are you anybody special like we. And then they. They start bringing up all these claims that they have these letters of recommendation and that they're powerful speakers and that they have an authority based on their skills and competency that Paul can't compete with. And so Timothy is. Or Titus comes and says, these apostles are just saying they're better than you. Essentially, they're suffering less. They have better letters of recommendation. They're better public speakers, and that the Corinthians should listen to them more than they should listen to you. The apostle Jesus has commissioned.

David: And that's what occasions the letter of 2 Corinthians. Okay. Okay. So Paul plants the church in Corinth, and he leaves.

Seth: Yes.

David: Hears that things are going sideways and writes first Corinthians, which we don't have. Yes. Then the Corinthians write first Paul. Yep. A letter to Paul.

Seth: Okay.

David: To which Paul writes second Corinthians which is our First Corinthians, which we do have.

Seth: That's right.

David: And then he tells him he's going to come and visit them after writing our First Corinthians. His Second Corinthians.

Seth: Yes, that's right.

David: And then Timothy delivers that to Corinth, and he hears that things are not going well, so he changes his travels plans, comes straight to Corinth, gets publicly humiliated, leaves, suffers in Macedonia, and then writes Third Corinthians, which we don't have. Which is the painful letter.

Seth: Yes.

David: And Titus delivers that one. It works. But he brings reports back to Paul that things are bad. And so he writes Fourth Corinthians, which is our Second Corinthians.

Seth: That's exactly.

David: Nailed it.

Seth: I'm really hopeful that was more helpful.

David: I'm sure it wasn't. I just wanted to do it because I thought it was fun. That was purely for me. Just for me. I. I really enjoyed it.

Seth: As I said at the beginning of this episode, this is a long, extended relationship with somebody that it's hard to all. There's a lot going on.

David: Okay. Yeah. So I think I understand. We have this long relationship, but now there's this new element in it. And what's on the line, I think in 2 Corinthians, what you're saying. Yes. Is Paul has this apostolic, you know, like, ambassadorship to the church in Corinth where he's trying to lay a foundation of Jesus's teaching for this church, which in the past has included things like morality and how to live and how to function in the gifts and things like that. Yeah. And now that authority, that care, that ambassadorship is being challenged by a different group of apostles.

Seth: Paul just calls them false apostles.

David: False apostles?

Seth: Yeah, the people who presume to be sent by Jesus.

David: Okay, so these false apostles who are sent by. I guess you've mentioned letters of recommendation. So assuming those are the sent ones. And there's this clash. The clash of the apostles.

Seth: Yes.

David: And the soul of Corinth is on the line. Or like what? Like it's the foundation of that church is being shaken. Yeah, in a sense, yes. Okay. And that's the battle.

Seth: That's the battle.

David: Okay.

Seth: You're getting to the heart of it. When you say, like, Paul as this ambassador of the kingdom of God to the Gentiles, there is a sense, like, to disagree with Paul on certain issues is to preach a different gospel and to run afoul of the kingdom that God is building through the Messiah, Jesus. So, yes, the soul of Corinth is on the line. Yes. Paul's authority is on the line. But because of who Paul is as an ambassador of the new kingdom, and because these people are critiquing and minimizing or dismissing Paul's apostleship, they're also critiquing the Gospel itself. In some ways, this is why this book is here.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Because it's not just a battle about who has the right to teach in Corinth.

David: Yeah.

Seth: It's like there is a critique of what the Gospel, what the kingdom of God is, who it's for and how it functions.

David: And it goes all the way back to Jesus. Words to his apostles about how they are to lead.

Seth: That's right.

David: By serving, suffering and going low. And that's what the gospel looks like. That's who Jesus is. That's what his kingdom should look like. Yes. How it would be a light to the world. And these false apostles are preaching a different kind of way, a different way to build and grow the kingdom of God.

Seth: That's right. That's right. One of their first critiques of Paul is that he's an unfaithful messenger.

David: Okay.

Seth: Apostle means messenger, the sent one. He's like. And he's a flaky, unfaithful, and unreliable messenger. And they have evident proof of this in the fact that Paul said he would come to Corinth and didn't. Instead of coming, he wrote a letter instead of coming. Like, he changed his travel plans.

David: He was going to Macedonia and he.

Seth: Showed up and so just think he.

David: Was going to come and he wrote a letter.

Seth: And like, think about it. Like, it's like, well, First Corinthians said that he spoke on the Lord's behalf.

David: And now he can't even hold true to his own travel plans.

Seth: Right. That's right. So it's like. So, like, how confident are you that Paul.

David: Yep.

Seth: Is a competent apostle and minister of the new Covenant? That.

David: Yeah, yeah. He's bringing. It's like. And no. No one take offense to this. I'm not making a statement here, but it would be like when people talk about papal authority with the Pope.

Seth: Yeah.

David: It's like, well, there's documented evidence where the Pope has misspoken.

Seth: Or different popes have different popes contradict each other.

David: And it's like, that's kind of what they're poking at.

Seth: He's like, yeah, they're saying what?

David: Like, how can he be speaking authoritatively if he's contradicting himself?

Seth: That's right.

David: Yeah.

Seth: So that's part of Their critique of Paul alongside that critique of Paul is that he's essentially unrecommended. So this goes back or like not a true apostle because they have these letters of recommendation and Paul does not. And Paul will bring up this idea of self commendation. And so presumably the critique is, well, we have. You can look at our credentials, look at all these endorsements by famous people you recognize and would consider authoritative and special.

David: That's who sent us.

Seth: That's who sent us. Paul is just telling you he's an apostle.

David: Yeah.

Seth: The only person saying that Paul's an apostle is Paul.

David: Yeah.

Seth: So how can you trust him to be an apostle when we have.

David: Who's corroborating his evidence when we have.

Seth: Such clearly better qualifications?

David: Right.

Seth: On top of that, they admit that they have a higher degree of rhetorical skill than Paul.

David: They're better preachers.

Seth: They're better preachers. They are better at doing what Corinthians liked.

David: Oh, yeah. The culture there loved the oration and.

Seth: Rhetoric and the battle of words. That was part of. And this is a Roman colony in Greece. So this is part of the culture.

David: Definitely.

Seth: And there's a lot of cultural cachet in being a good rhetorician and orator, which is saying. And Paul doesn't have these things.

David: Yeah. Alongside that they also, he's supposed to be a messenger. He ain't talk no good.

Seth: That's right. That's exactly right.

David: Right.

Seth: And alongside that they say their ministry to them has been attended by signs and wonders and visions. And so the critique of Paul is that where's his visions? Where's his signs and wonders?

David: Yeah.

Seth: So the. So this is the report that Titus gets back. And so when Paul writes this, he's like, okay, so these folks think they're more reliable than me. They think they're better recommended me. They're better speech writers than me. They got more miracles and more visions. So when Paul finally goes on the attack against them, he like calls them soup. These so called super apostles. And that's how he like sarcastically kind of dismisses them.

David: Yes.

Seth: And I think the reason why he sarcastically dismisses them is the conversation we started with.

David: Yes.

Seth: To approach the Corinthians with a long list of qualifications and why they are better is antithetical to how Jesus said apostles should act.

David: That's right.

Seth: Right.

David: The true mark of an apostle is humility, suffering, servanthood.

Seth: That's right.

David: And they are supermen.

Seth: Yeah.

David: So therefore they're.

Seth: And they're boasting in their supermanness.

David: And so therefore they're Disqualified from the very office they're claiming.

Seth: That's right.

David: Yeah, that's.

Seth: And that's at the very bottom.

David: That's the argument.

Seth: That's the argument Paul is making why they are false apostles and why he's a true apostle.

David: Right.

Seth: His apostleship is marked by the suffering and the servanthood of God while their apostleship is not. He makes other arguments, but like that's the most.

David: And then sustained and then underneath that. I just want to remind myself again that this isn't a proof that. See, so I'm in charge. Ah, right. It's. It's again, it's. This is how the kingdom grows. This is what Jesus wants to do on earth is continue to suffer with, suffer for, serve and be humble. Like this is how his kingdom grows.

Seth: And the gospel that I preached is true.

David: That's right.

Seth: So. And I think that's the other part, that if it gets anywhere near authority, it's that the gospel that I preached is the true one and the one that will come about and the one we will all be held accountable to.

David: Is it, is it possible that what you're saying here is to follow the apostles, sorry, the false apostles who are supermen, is in a sense a denial of the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus because. Well, our leader of leaders, our cornerstone foundation of the church, he died on a cross, was lowly, meek, poor, humble.

Seth: And he showed us the way.

David: He showed us the way. And if that ministry isn't attended to by a humble servant leader, it undermines the very gospel it's proclaiming.

Seth: Yes, and what I think Paul's also saying is that in his ministry he is communicating the truth of the kingdom of God, the tr. The truth of the message of Jesus, whereas they are preaching something false.

David: I understand. So it's not just that in his humble servanthood, apostleship, he is corroborating, looking like mirroring the gospel of Jesus and therefore the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus. Yes, but there's actually something internal about what he's teaching, how he's leading the church, what he said about sexual immorality and division and the gifts. And it's the content of his message.

Seth: That's right.

David: Is also on the line, how he is laying a foundation for the church is also needing to be like, established as good and true and authoritative.

Seth: Maybe another way to say, even more strongly, it's like to deny Paul is to deny the gospel. And so he, he says, by the.

David: Gospel we mean the way of the.

Seth: Kingdom, the way of the kingdom. And like the truth that salvation is only found in Jesus Christ through like, like all. Like the death, burial, resurrection, the kingdom that God has established, all of that.

David: Okay.

Seth: Like, Paul is the messenger of those things.

David: Yes.

Seth: And to deny Paul is to deny the message of Jesus.

David: Like, yes. And I. And I. Yeah, I think I'm almost there. And that's because one, I guess, is the thing I'm just less comfortable with, that I need to get comfortable with, is because Paul was sent by Jesus.

Seth: That's right.

David: And like, that's.

Seth: That's right.

David: That's the part that I'm less comfortable with for some reason. I don't know why. And then the other part is because his message actually is cruciform. It is in the shape of the cross.

Seth: That's right.

David: And it actually does represent the gospel.

Seth: The way that Paul defends his ministry is by pointing to its cruciformity. And like, that is his veiled way of establishing his authority as the one who is the rightful proclaimer of the truth.

David: Because it looks like Jesus.

Seth: That's right. So Paul. And going back to the conversation at the beginning, Paul never says, I'm an apostle. You should listen to me.

David: Right. What?

Seth: He says, I'm a sufferer like Jesus was. So you judge who is the true apostle?

David: Who's the true apostle? The one who looks like Jesus, who.

Seth: Is the one preaching the truth. And then Paul even says something close to what I'm saying. This. He says this in Second Corinthians, chapter 11. If anyone comes and proclaims another Jesus than the one we proclaimed, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received from us, or if you accepted a different gospel from the one you accepted. So Paul is very clear in accepting these false apostles. That's a different Jesus, a different gospel, a different spirit.

David: That is just scary.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Just to think about, you know, we can form Jesus in our own image and believe in one that didn't really exist. Yeah. And get filled with a power that's not his spirit. It might be. Then I guess the other version is demonic. Yeah. And then by what force did they do these miracles and signs? Was it the Holy Spirit? Probably not. Maybe it was demonically inspired. And then they're building a different kingdom through a different gospel. Yeah. And so you're building a demonic kingdom by demonic powers, preaching a demonic Jesus.

Seth: Yes.

David: Just by having leaders that aren't cruciform shaped.

Seth: Yeah. Well, and specifically one sent by Jesus, because that's what's on the line. They're disagreeing.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Paul wasn't sent by Jesus. We are. If they're dismissing that Paul was sent by Jesus, they're dismissing the words of Jesus.

David: I see. So it's not necessarily the analog isn't so proud leaders are super apostles doing works by the devil.

Seth: That's not. That's exactly right.

David: It's people who would say like, oh, I don't know. I don't think Paul's letters in the New Testament are authoritative.

Seth: That would be closer to what's happening in Christ.

David: I think I have a different revelation that supersedes the Bible.

Seth: That's right. We have a different authority other than Paul, the one chosen by Jesus.

David: Yeah, that's.

Seth: That's what's on the line.

David: That feels understandably scandalous to me.

Seth: That's right.

David: Like as an evangelical.

Seth: And so that's what makes sense. That's why it feels like Paul. Everything's on the line for Paul in second Corinthians. And why there's so much heat behind the defense of his ministry is because like the fidelity of the words of Jesus. The words of Jesus are on the line.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Okay. So we've talked around it a whole bunch.

David: Yes.

Seth: But the question is. So Paul has this really fine line to walk in the book of Corinthians. He has to defend his apostleship while maintaining the quality of a servant hearted cruciform disciple.

David: Yeah. He has to defend his apostleship without sounding like the super apostles.

Seth: That's right. And he even explicitly says it is inappropriate for me to boast. Like they're boasting in their qualifications.

David: They want me to come and stack up my qualifications next to them and see who does it. That's the wrong game to play.

Seth: That's right. It's an inappropriate.

David: Inappropriate.

Seth: It's an inappropriate game to play.

David: Stupid.

Seth: He even calls it foolish throughout his letter as like, this is just not the way the disciples of Jesus should behave.

David: Yeah.

Seth: However, Paul, being the sarcastic man that he is, he says like, okay, let's just play around for a second. If you're so willing to put up with fools in foolishness, indulge me in a little bit of foolishness.

David: Here's some stupid stuff I could say about myself.

Seth: That's right. He's like, if you're, if you're, if.

David: You love dumb talk so much, here's some dumb talk.

Seth: Here's, here's something I will boast. This is dumb.

David: This is stupid.

Seth: I know this is stupid. I know it's inappropriate, but let me do this for you. And then he goes on and starts.

David: Listing his qualifications like the super apostles did.

Seth: Like. And so playing the game. And at first it sounds as if he's trading barbs, right? At first. He says this in chapter 11, verse 22. Are they Hebrews? Well, so am I. Are they Israelites? So am I. Are they offspring of Abraham? So am I. Are they servants of Christ? I am a better one. And then he says, this is so dumb. I'm talking like a madman. I was like, this is not the way we have this argument. But just bear with me since you.

David: Guys love foolish talk.

Seth: I'm a better one. Why am I a better one? So this is where it gets to his comparative superiority to these super apostles with far greater labors. I was like, okay, I work harder. Far more imprisonments.

David: Oh, wait, hold on.

Seth: With countless beatings.

David: That's not good.

Seth: Often near death.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Five times I receive at the hands of the Jews. 40 lashes. Minus one. Three times I was beaten with rods. I was stoned, shipwrecked. And he goes on and on.

David: And these are the very things the super apostles have been, like, questioning him about.

Seth: Like, hey, your.

David: Your guy just keeps getting beat up.

Seth: Aren't these proofs that we are superior apostles?

David: Yep. And he's like, no, this is a proof that I'm the superior apostle.

Seth: That's right. I am following the way that Jesus taught. That's right. The apost to do.

David: A real apostle would suffer.

Seth: That's right. And then he says this at the very end. If I have to boast, I will boast of the things that show my weakness. And then he's going to go on and say a really famous line in second Corinthians, what God says to Paul, as he is in a particularly weakened state. He says, my grace is sufficient for you because my power is made perfect or complete in weakness. So Paul is saying the reason, ultimately apostles boast in suffering is it's because in suffering, the power of God is manifest. And that is why I am the superior apostle in this matter. It's like, even though this is a dumb way to talk, but that's. That's the argument that he makes.

David: Yeah.

Seth: Like this is the way of the apostles of Jesus, man.

David: And so, I mean, that's. So I guess if we're trying to round out Second Corinthians, the thing we're supposed to take away from it is what, ah, the. Like, like the need for an apostle or like how to identify a servant leader? Or is it something more around what you're saying here, which is the cruciform shape of our lives. I'm. Yeah, yeah. It can be a strange book.

Seth: It can. It is a.

David: To try to read. Like, I think a lot of us want to read the Bible, which is like, so what's in here for me? Right. But. Yeah, but what do we do with Second Corinthians?

Seth: I mean, I think what were the Corinthians supposed to do with Second Corinthians is like, they were supposed to be reaffirmed in their confidence in the apostle Paul as a true apostle of Jesus Christ. And I think this is a salient enough issue that we could still say that this is an important thing. I know a lot of folks that are like, the apostle Paul is an inconsistent, often contradictory or like, unreliable messenger of the way of Jesus. Paul contradicts Jesus. You know, they'll. They'll say, like, the critique of the false apostles is still alive and well.

David: Definitely. I remember when I was, like, just out of college and I was struggling with believing in my Bible. Yeah. And Paul was one of the main reasons. And I really struggled with him because I couldn't read him as anything other than a still angry Pharisee. Yeah. And he just seemed like a bigot. He seemed misogynistic. Right. He seemed. Yeah. Like inflammatory. And I remember one of my mentors, he just said to me, go read Paul again with kinder eyes. And that was great advice. Yeah. But better advice maybe would be go read 2nd Corinthians and look at the life of Paul and see if you still think the same way about him.

Seth: Yeah, that's right. Yeah, that's right. And so I think that's a real live takeaway. It's like the character of the Apostle Paul was being assassinated by some.

David: Definitely.

Seth: And then this is his apostolic defense. Like, this is why I'm a worthy messenger of the Gospel and why most of the New Testament is written.

David: It's like, super practically, why should you trust the letter in Romans?

Seth: Yeah.

David: Or, you know, why should you obey the moral commands of First Corinthians? Or, you know, like, it's. Yeah, it's interesting. It's because. Yeah, there we actually had a sent ambassador of Christ. Yeah. Who was giving his life to live this cruciform servanthood life to lay a foundation for the church, and there's actually the teaching of Jesus in it.

Seth: What's fascinating is, like, normally when I have conversations about, well, why should I trust the Bible or why should I trust what Paul says? It's like, well, because it's the Bible, it's God's word. It's God's word. And I play functionally the authority card.

David: Right.

Seth: That Paul refuses to play.

David: Yeah. Interesting.

Seth: He, like, I haven't thought about that. No.

David: It's fascinating, though. It's like. Well, that's a great question. Let's look at the life of one of its authors.

Seth: Yes. Like, that's just the autobiography of Paul. Autobiography of Paul as an apologetic for the truthfulness.

David: Let's look at his life and you tell me if you think somebody could be living this way and writing these things if they didn't actually have the word of God.

Seth: It's like. And a lot of people who critique Paul loved Jesus.

David: Yes.

Seth: It's like, well, Jesus said his apostles should look like this. Doesn't Paul's life look like what Jesus commanded?

David: That's right.

Seth: Doesn't he look like a true apostle sent by Jesus Christ? Doesn't look like he's been changed by an experience with Jesus.

David: Yeah. And it's interesting, too, that you can say that. And if Paul's life was like that, so were the other apostles.

Seth: Yes.

David: And if the apostles were like that, well, they share their foundation with the prophets. Yeah. Because they all have the cornerstone of Christ. So your whole Bible is reflecting this authority that. You look at the life of Moses, you know, how he suffered with Israel in the wilderness. You look at the life of so many different people that wrote this book. Yeah. And it's like, oh, they all are doing the same thing. They all have this servant suffering. Like, you look at Hose qualification. Yeah. Look at Hosea. Look at, you know, look at Ezekiel. And it's like they all were doing this kind of Christlike suffering, serving, laboring in the word of God. S. Thing.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Anyway, it's an interesting. It's a different apologetic.

Seth: It's a different apologetic for why to trust. Very. At least the letters of Paul, but all the letters that we have from the apostles.

David: Yeah.

Seth: And I think the other thing is, like, so what do we do with letters to Second Corinthians? There's other things in Corinthians we. We didn't touch on, like a whole section on generosity, but like, as we think about the cruciform nature of those sent by God, the apostles are specifically chosen from among the disciples for this foundational task. However, the great commission, John 17, would also tell us that we are also sent by God into the world to live as his ambassadors, proclaiming the gospel of his kingdom.

David: Paul calls us that in 2 Corinthians. Right?

Seth: Yes.

David: I think 5, 20 we are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you, on Christ's behalf, be reconciled to God.

Seth: Yes.

David: Well, he might be talking about himself.

Seth: He is talking about himself. However, Paul frequently does this where he. I mean, I think the we is intentional. I think he's referring to himself primarily, but not to the exclusion of those who follow him either. Yeah.

David: But, yes, I mean, we. I think we're all called to follow Jesus. That is the way. Yeah. And what Jesus told us to do is take up our cross. That's right.

Seth: That is the baseline for following Jesus.

David: The apostles weren't the only ones called to take up their cross. They were called. They were called to teach us the way of Jesus. And what they teach us is to do these things after him. Yeah.

Seth: And then Jesus even talks about the way that all believers are supposed to be. To live is like to lose their life in order to find it and to pick up their cross and follow Him. That is the way that we all exist in the world. So Paul gives us a really great example to follow of the types of things that we should be endeavoring to be like in our Christian life and things that we should be like. We should be willing to boast in the things that prove our greatest weakness. And I think that's helpful because I think in most places, I want to project an image of myself that is better, that selects the best parts of my behavior in a recent span of time as who I truly am. And this is why you should hire me. This is why I should be. Would be a good youth group volunteer. This is why I would be as sufficient a missionary. That's why you should send me as a missionary.

David: No one puts the reasons they were fired on their resume.

Seth: That's right. And there's practical wisdom that we might be running into here. Sure. However, I think it's like, I'm frequently embarrassed by those things. And I think the critique that the false apostles are bringing against Paul is like, you should be embarrassed by these things. And that would have carried cultural weight too. Like, to be imprisoned. To be imprisoned for five years.

David: Oh, yeah.

Seth: Even now is culturally embarrassing.

David: Oh, totally. If I was like, hey, I'm David. Hey, what's up? What's up with you? Oh, I've been in prison for the last five years. I've lost so much social credit.

Seth: Even if I said, well, because I was preaching the gospel, I'm still gonna be like, whoa, okay, that's kind of extreme.

David: It takes some.

Seth: There's like, There would be just a hump to get over in your interaction with that person. But those are the things that Paul finds great hope in, because those are the places that God proves himself most powerful. And so I think even there is like an invitation to accept the weak and embarrassing parts of our lives and story as places to invite the Lord's power into. I think that's close to the heart of the wisdom of what Paul is saying is hoping for power in places of weakness.

David: And so to end, I think we should meditate then on the place where that is most evident, which is the cross of Jesus, because that's what all of this is building on. So why did we kind of talked about why apostles? Why a cross? Why does God use weakness to show strength? Why when Jesus calls someone and sends someone and he puts his ambassadors in the world, why does he say, the way you must look is like a servant and your life should be marked with suffering? Is he a masochist? Does he want to watch us squirm? Obviously not. So then why the cross? And like, why did God manifest his strength through weakness in Jesus dying?

Seth: I mean, Paul gives us the answer in 2nd Corinthians 4.

David: Wonderful.

Seth: We have this treasure referring to the treasure of the kingdom of God and the message of Jesus in jars of clay, referring to his own fragile body.

David: Yep.

Seth: To show that in order to show that the surpassing power belongs to God and not to us. The reason why God chooses weakness is so that the power of God can be demonstrated on the earth.

David: Yeah.

Seth: That's why.

David: Yeah. He. The biblical story begins with an empty, chaotic, nothing world. And God uses the weakness of that to show his strength. Yeah. God chooses the smallest, weakest fringe nation to build his worldwide empire. Yeah. He chooses a peasant from Nazareth. You know, he incarnates himself as a peasant from Nazareth. Yeah. To die by the hands of a powerful army in the most despicable, disgraceful way on a cross, in order to raise him from the dead and put him on the highest throne. To show that he's the one who's powerful, that he's the one who's in control and has all authority and can do anything through anything. Like it can only be God.

Seth: Yes.

David: And he's doing it for his own glory, to show people his love, his power, his mercy, his goodness.

Seth: And then for us, as God shows himself off in that way, here's our experience of what it feels like. This is the very next verse that means we are afflicted in every way, but not crushed. We are perplexed but not driven to despair. We're persecuted, but not forsaken entirely. We're struck down but not destroyed. We carry in the body the death of Jesus. So the life of Jesus can be manifested in our bodies as well. That's why Jesus chooses weakness. That's why he chooses powerlessness is so in our own bodies, we would experience the power of God in the world for the benefit of others.

David: Right. So when people see us suffering but not despairing, being struck down but not destroyed, they see death in our lives.

Seth: Yes.

David: But what they actually see is resurrection and life. And, like, what's going on here? It's like, this is the power of God.

Seth: Yeah.

David: This is Jesus living in me.

Seth: Yes.

David: Come and taste his mercy and love.

Seth: The concluding line, death is at work in us.

David: Yeah.

Seth: But life in you. That's the.

David: So when we. So you're saying, like, we. When we obey this cruciform lifestyle, we get to be Jesus to others in a sense. We get to die for them. Showing the life of Jesus and his resurrection power even in our worst.

Seth: That's right.

David: Weak suffering times.

Seth: That's right.

David: Which is what Paul did for the church in Corinth. Continually.

Seth: Yeah.

David: Even though they yelled at him and maligned him and disobeyed him. Wow, that's really cool. Okay. Second Corinthians.

Seth: Two Corinthians.

David: Amazing.

Seth: Yes. That's a general overview of the book of Second Corinthians. Next time, we want to go deeper into a very special passage in Second Corinthians chapter two, through chapters four, which kind of form, like a heartbeat that for spoken gospel, for our understanding of the Bible and like, the hope of transformation in Scripture. So we're gonna go to a slow work through of those. That little chapter and a half next time.

David: It's gonna be fun. So thank you guys for listening and joining us. We will see you next time.

Christine: Thank you for listening to the Spoken Gospel podcast. Spoken Gospel creates short films, devotionals, and podcasts like this one. Everything we make is free because of generous supporters like you. To see our resources, visit spoken gospel.com or subscribe to our YouTube channel. Thanks for listening. Listening. See you next time.